US Airways Pilots Labor Thread 9/19- 9/27..

[aquagreen73s]

Out West we do not impose on our friend, nor do we seek to boast. We simply set our beer down, accomplish our task and once successful announce "Drinks are on me!"

Very well said, Nic. This will soon be over in the courts and the failure of the final double down for the Cleary gang - the snapback grievance - will mark the end to this impass. I'm sure there will be plenty of reconciliation occurring within the East as a lot of those pilots will want an explanation for all the lies and mistruths which in the end only resulted in the Nic being cemented in stone, and the East continuing to fly under LOA 93 until there is a joint contract. The losses over there have been horrendous, but that's their business and it will work itself out over there. When it does, we'll be saving some cold ones out West for those who wish to join us and get on with what we should have been doing two and a half years ago.

 

[Megasnoop]

How many pilots has USAPA gotten fired so far? Until you nail your first pilot it's just another empty USAPA promise.

None, D, because USAPA's into collecting dues, not "nailing" pilots. No prize in that. In fact, we lose dues on termination. Suzie lost arbitration and had to pay or get terminated. Other than showing up to work drunk, this is about the only thing you can get yourself fired for by your own action/inaction.

That does bring up an interesting point--there may be another DFR lurking if USAPA does not seek termination of East and West sec 29 folks on a relatively even basis.

Oh please! You really think this kind of talk gets any East B/P up? Listen to Reed. There are subtle differences in S-29 language. Whatever you think, between Suzie and 4 (3/1) pilots barely getting by, USAPA dues/fees collection are nearing 100% compliance. Anyone now willing to roll the dice? A DFR based on what? Hard to single one out when almost everyone has complied.

You mentioned Doug’s latest remarks about enforcing dues/fees collection. Over the last 17 months Doug has at worst lied about his willingness to enforce Section 29, and at best taken a less than respectable path insuring he would not do any of the heavy lifting in the process. Well, all the lifting is done. Will he live up to his word this time? Who knows. But if he does, I fear some families are going to come up short a breadwinner, with no recourse.

All the while Hogg and Bular were telling us just don't dump 500 S-29 terminations on us all at once. Sounds like a failure to communicate.

By the way, Doug is correct. There is no "snapback" in LOA 93. RR

That's right. It was written just like a normal pay raise at a pre-determined date, written in return for concessions. The company pulling it off the Hub doesn't make it disappear.

Hold on Aqua..where did you come up with 5 years? We are slowly cleaning up the mess that was once ALPA, you know..the same union J Mack and gang also tried (with Seham by the way,) and failed, to throw off your property. Other than succeeding, the only difference is we are paying our legal bills.

5 years is kind of funny, since the merger just turned 4 years old and USAPA's been on proerty less than 18 months. J Mack and gang couldn't get enough cards. 2 years ago all we heard was we'd never get enough cards. Then it was we'd never get the votes. Now it's we'll never win the appeal, never get the pay raise.

Just as everything else, the results will not be dependent upon the number of negative (or positive) posts on a forum. RR

That's obviously a difficult concept for some here to grasp.

 

[aquagreen73s]

5 years is kind of funny, since the merger just turned 4 years old and USAPA's been on proerty less than 18 months. J Mack and gang couldn't get enough cards. 2 years ago all we heard was we'd never get enough cards. Then it was we'd never get the votes. Now it's we'll never win the appeal, never get the pay raise.

Is that the best you can do now? Brag about numerical typos and the success of just collecting cards?

How's that DOH cram down working out for ya?

 

[Hate2fly]

Old and wrong. Well examining what we have said from the beginning we have been correct. Final and binding means final and binding. A jury and federal judge now say so. Integrity does matter. No one can argue against that. Living up to ones word is a matter of integrity.


We do not know what the court will rule but we can take an educated guess. When we first went to court DFR’s are hard to win but we knew we had a good case. Better than average, so something over 50%. After we began to see the filings and the legal theories from Seham those odds started going up. In the end the west prevailed.

Now in the ninth circuit the statistics speak for themselves. The court of appeal does not rule on the merits of the case or the outcome. They rule on how the judge did his job. Judge Wake does his job very well. The statistics in the ninth are that 95% of the time they uphold or agree with the judge and jury. So we don’t know but the chances are 95% on the west side that we will win this case. The odds get even longer to even see the SCOTUS.

You may not agree with the west “mantraâ€￾ but we have been right more time than we have been wrong. One last thing, before you start pointing finger at the west about how nasty some posts have been. Take a look at some of the east posts. Figure out how many east posters have seen the corn field. Being right tends to reduce the stress and keep the posts reasonable where some east posts are shrill and downright vicious and nutty.

We don’t now how the court will rule but we have a very good idea. Besides even in that 5% usapa wins the appeal. It only sends it back from a retrial before judge Wake. He knows the facts. A win on appeal does not end this in USAPA’s favor. It only continues the delay further.

Yo Clear,

I thought you might want to reread the Baptist & Wilder blog.

http://bapwild.com/blog/?p=454

He says your boy the judge got it wrong!

Hate

 

[Hate2fly]

Yo Clear,

I thought you might want to reread the Baptist & Wilder blog.

http://bapwild.com/blog/?p=454

He says your boy the judge got it wrong!

Hate

I really like this quote from Wilder:

This decision is wrong, contradicts established law and is dangerous to the state of the law under the Railway Labor Act.

Hate

 

[aquagreen73s]

I really like this quote from Wilder:
This decision is wrong, contradicts established law and is dangerous to the state of the law under the Railway Labor Act.
Hate

We know, as you guys have a disability when it comes to distinguishing between what you want to hear, and whether that is grouded in reason and fact.

Here's one for you: The local 7-11 is now handing out $100 bills to all Cleary acolytes because DOH is the gold standard.

Now...all true believers - run down the street now and get your $100 from the clerk! He might have your snapbacks too!

 

[Tiger 1050]

I really like this quote from Wilder:

This decision is wrong, contradicts established law and is dangerous to the state of the law under the Railway Labor Act.

Hate

Isn't that essentially what Seham has been telling you guys all along? Wilder is just another slime bag lawyer trying to drum up some business... Sad you so quickly latch on to that nipple friend. Stop and think. It'll lessen the let-down in the future.

 

[nic4us]

I really like this quote from Wilder:

This decision is wrong, contradicts established law and is dangerous to the state of the law under the Railway Labor Act.

Hate

Judge Wake specifically asked the companies lawyer, I have forgotten his name, but he works for some high power LA firm and is a contributing editor of a book called, "The Railway Labor Act", if in his opinion the injunction violated any laws within the RLA, to which he replied "no".

The quote I prefer from Wilder, is when he ( in layman's terms ) says Seham is pretty much incompetent, and dropped the ball many times while pointing out all the reasons why he would be a better east snake oil salesman.

I also like the readers commentary, when it is pointed out that Wilder has a conflict of intrest in his opinion and is little more than trying to drum up work at Seham's expense.

 

[Hate2fly]

Judge Wake specifically asked the companies lawyer, I have forgotten his name, but he works for some high power LA firm and is a contributing editor of a book called, "The Railway Labor Act", if in his opinion the injunction violated any laws within the RLA, to which he replied "no".

The quote I prefer from Wilder, is when he ( in layman's terms ) says Seham is pretty much incompetent, and dropped the ball many times while pointing out all the reasons why he would be a better east snake oil salesman.

I also like the readers commentary, when it is pointed out that Wilder has a conflict of intrest in his opinion and is little more than trying to drum up work at Seham's expense.

Yo Nic,

Another Wilder quote:

The court was also wrong about whether the case was ripe to be heard since the only action taken by USAPA was to make a proposal in bargaining. No actual agreement was reached with US Airways to change the Nicolau Award. In fact, the court admitted that US Airways has not responded to the USAPA proposal. So the proposal cannot have caused any injury to the plaintiffs.

Hate

 

[cleardirect]

Yo Clear,

I thought you might want to reread the Baptist & Wilder blog.

http://bapwild.com/blog/?p=454

He says your boy the judge got it wrong!

Hate

Old news from a lawyer that has worked for the east before. And would like to work for usapa again. He is looking for work when Seham gets fired for losing the appeal. Why not cleary loves wasting money and has made Seham a rick man with union dues. Wilder wants a piece of that.

Can you guys find anyone else that thinks judge Wake was wrong?

 

[hp_fa]

Judge Wake specifically asked the companies lawyer, I have forgotten his name, but he works for some high power LA firm and is a contributing editor of a book called, "The Railway Labor Act", if in his opinion the injunction violated any laws within the RLA, to which he replied "no".

Him

 

[Captain Underpants]

Judge Wake specifically asked the companies lawyer, I have forgotten his name, but he works for some high power LA firm and is a contributing editor of a book called, "The Railway Labor Act", if in his opinion the injunction violated any laws within the RLA, to which he replied "no".

An interesting quote from the Airline Transport Association newswire today:

....."Most importantly, even if the appeal fails, the Nicolau list would be just an appendix to a contract with two to three dozen sections. If a majority of pilots oppose the appendix, negotiators would logically seek to overcome those objections in other sections, because no contract can be approved without a majority vote.

It's hard to imagine that federal judges could be convinced to rule on every section. So whatever amount of money the airline puts into the contract -- the current offer is $122 million -- could go to narrow the gap between captain and first officer pay. It could go to boost longevity pay, currently capped at 12 years. Fences, restricting movement between pilot bases, could be written into the contract. For west pilots, the concern is an ancient one: Be careful what you wish for."......

Translation: Even if Wakes injunction is not found illegal by the 9th circuit it is still meaningless. Wake has no authority to force an unfair contract. The Nicolau list is one very small piece of the pie to be divided fairly by USAirways pilots through contract negotiations.

There are many possible variables pending including various court rulings, contract negotiations, merger, bankruptcy, liquidation, split-up, strike, etc.

Regardless of future events the one thing that is now absolutely certain is that the West pilots will never be able to cash in the Nicolau windfall thus terminating its potential injustice.

underpants

 

[Bear96]

Cleardirect:

The pay issue is now a grievance, and Doug has two different ways to affect the outcome. He can simply comply with the language as interpreted by USAPA, or give his best argument in front of the System Board. Other than a complete capitulation, the decision is not his to make.

Sure it is. If it goes to System Board and he does not like the outcome of the arbitration, he can simply ignore the decision and continue to pay you whatever he likes.

Isn't that how things work in USAPA-land?

 

[hp_fa]

Hate,

FYI there was a lengthy chat about Wilder and the issues you are raising. Do an advanced search using the term "Wilder" in this forum, select the last 90 days and show results as posts. Early to mid-August will yield the discussion.

I don't know if this link will work, but feel free to try it. Link

 

[Hate2fly]

Isn't that essentially what Seham has been telling you guys all along? Wilder is just another slime bag lawyer trying to drum up some business... Sad you so quickly latch on to that nipple friend. Stop and think. It'll lessen the let-down in the future.

Yo Tiger,

Another personal favorite quote from the Wilder blog:



This decision ignores precedent governing successor unions under the RLA. It defies logic concerning collective bargaining. That one proposal violates the DFR doesn’t mean that all conceivable proposals do. And seniority rights can be structured in a manner to mitigate adverse effects for one employee group while retaining gains for another. Seniority isn’t a zero sum game and not all seniority proposals are created equal.

That is a real peach!

Hate