US Airways unveils 767 Envoy seats

[vantheman63]

Ignorance and Arrogance is deadly combination. You will have to forgive them has they have NO clue, but think they know everything. It will be the death of this airline.

Goodness gracious, is that well said.

Perfectly thought through, well said and excellently stated.

 

[vantheman63]

Historically USAirways was never in the international league of any of those carriers, yet mentally you think you deserve to be, why? Comparing CO to US is probably the most accurate you can get:

first bankruptcy 1983,
throw in a couple mergers (peoples ex, frontier)
2nd bankruptcy in 1990
followed by a big international expansion
poor customer service

Sounding familiar? took them about 7 years to turn that one around and now they are highly regarded.

So, why would US Airways' management be smart enough to "learn from the past?" Why would this need to take 2 years, let alone another 7 years?

This is not an "apples to apples" comparison....or, at the very least, it exposes US Airways' management to be incapable of and/or lacking the intelligence to tap into the history books and keep history from repeating itself.

 

[NAPAUS]

😱

Why do you feel so compelled to defend what has become a scrappy airline? I became a CO frequent flyer right after Lorenzo was ousted and CO's service in the Pacific never fell to the levels that US is today. US cannot even provide the basics such as an efficient check-in process, a clean boarding gate and aircraft cabin, and IFE that isn't broken, let alone consistent on-time performance. So what is it about USAirways that you feel so compelled to defend? And for the record, CO's big transatlantic push did not start until well after Gordon Bethune showed up...and their Business First product was introduced under Robert Fergusson's leadership, not Bethune's. I just don't get why you continually feel that you need to justify your company's poor product and dismal performance.

:h 😱 😱 😱 Because they( US employees ) are terrified of loosing what that are so desperately hanging on to. they are afraid- pure and simple. And fear is crippling, so they are compelled to defend the mgmt, the airline and their future employment. One can hope that someone else buys them and they can feel real pride - not a defense based on FEAR.

 

[Q2DETX5]

The people that were directly involved with this seat selection happen to do a great job at what they do and have been doing it for years, at US Airways East before coming to the new US Airways.

I just have to ask, are these the same college inbreeds that brought us "Business Select" seats?

 

[AstroLounge]

Then why doesn't this company communicate to us exactly what passenger profile their spreadsheets indicate this "service" would please?

Because it IS NOT the market I serve on board. I see business people in major metropolitan areas needing reliable transportation, preferably with a place to hang their coats, place their belongings, read a newspaper, eat a snack, and have a stiff drink.

Grand? I wouldn't have used that word but in comparison to the "product" we're offering now, ANYTHING better could be considered grand.

Arrogant, short-sighted, immature, inexperienced, cavalier and clueless. The poorly executed projects since the attempted merger could set us up for another possible bankruptcy. Wouldn't surprise me a bit.
What is your response to the DOT figures? I know, it's the air traffic control system. Finger pointing at its best.

Communicate a realistic attainable goal to employees. Give them the tools they require. Watch what happens.

Very well stated. The Clowns in Tempe (and other names DO come to mind) really have NO CONCEPT of running a LARGE Airline. When a Management Team makes countless mistakes on a recurring basis, pisses off their customers and has a proven track record in poor employee relations HOW or WHY would ANYONE defend them? I come to work as I am expected but there is absolutely NO WAY I would pay to FLY on THIS Airline. (If I don't drive the distance myself, I usually purchase tickets on another carrier........I don't have the time, patience or desire to subject myself to THIS CLUSTERF* that Team Tempe calls an airline.)

 

[Barberpole]

I am generally quick to critize management but I don't see anything wrong with these seats. I think they did a great job finding a decent product to offer for an aging fleet. These planes are slated to be RETIRED soon. Do you really want the company pouring money into very old 767's in order to match the service on a UAL 777? I sure don't. I would rather they used cash to expand the operation, stockpile cash, etc. US Airways used to have the best food, service, wine selections, etc and look where it got them...Bankrupt. Like it or not the vast majority of US citizens will not pay for service.

 

[Travelpro72]

While I feel the seats are expected from Tempe they could be worse. I never set my sights on a great seat. We will be a follower and NEVER a leader in the int'l or HELL domestic market. That being said I wasn't shocked by any means. What I find funny though is how the fact that Envoy on the 767 is going from 24 to 18 keeps getting overlooked. Take into account the fact that one of those seats is a crew rest and your down to 17. Who in their right mind though would pay "full fare" to Europe on Us when you can fly another airline with MUCH better onboard service and upgrades. The a/c instead of being gutted and fitted seats while overheads and sidewalls are kept the same. It's a g'damn joke. It's like putting new leather seats in an old beat up car. It can be RESTORED or spruced up ghetto style. This company has chose the latter.

 

[LCC_#1]

US Airways used to have the best food, service, wine selections, etc and look where it got them...Bankrupt. Like it or not the vast majority of US citizens will not pay for service.

Sorry friend, but mismanagement, ridiculously liberal and high cost contracts (for which I enjoyed and benefitted), a concentrated route structure, too many a/c types, and the lack of innovation/insight drove US Airways towards Chapter 11. 9/11 was the finger that thumped us over the edge.

I honestly believe no F/C in the USA is worth the full fare price but ours is insulting at the least. Our business traveler DOES pay for the service...by paying higher last minute fares and being loyal. That is worth the trip to upgrade heaven. The problem is that our FC has turned into upgrade hell. :huh:

 

[phlus2]

What I find funny though is how the fact that Envoy on the 767 is going from 24 to 18 keeps getting overlooked. Take into account the fact that one of those seats is a crew rest and your down to 17.

Exactly my point earlier in this thread - and no one - not even those that defend the US Envoy service as being good responded.

If they could actually come up with a premium service that people would pay for - they would be expanding the number of seats in Envoy - not reducing them. If anyone actually pays $7,000 for envoy they should get some thearpy and quickly. I mean really - at $7,000 a ticket that seems like it would be a pretty good profit margin even if they were spending more on the providing good service.

While $7,000 for any airline ticket is crazy, if I'm travelling on business I would pay it, but certainly not on US when I could fly LH, BA or AF out of Philly for the same price and get a level of service that US doesn't even dream of.

 

[JAMAKE1]

$7,000 for a Business Class ticket across the pond on an airline that delivers, is not crazy if you are a business traveler about to close a multi-million dollar deal. $7000 for an Envoy class IS crazy, because the value proposition just isn't there. I am amused at the posters that remark that the traveling public isn't willing to pay for such service. BA was way ahead of the game because they understood a long time ago that money is to be made from their premium cabin customers. They were an early innovator. They hired a yacht design firm to design a lie-flat bed for their First Class section. This was in the mid-1990's. Always one step ahead of the curve, BA was also one of the first to introduce fully lie-flat seats in their Club World (Business Class) cabins. British Airways has thus, invested heavily in their premium cabin product over the years and has been enormously successful in commanding a revenue premium, even over US carriers that compete in the same markets.

Some US carriers are finally catching on. For all of its faults, I think United has finally embraced this concept. Their investment in their International Premium Product will likely yield them similar results (a revenue premium). Having worked a number of years in the SFO-JFK market, I will tell you, that on p.s. service (and before that, Premium Transcon Service), often times 8 out of 10 First Class seats are filled with business travelers paying the full First Class fare ($3000 one-way). Since rebranding their trancon west coast-JFK service as p.s., United has been very successful in attracting a significantly greater number of premium fare travelers in this market.

As others have stated, USAirways' trips through bankruptcy had more to do with years of systemic problems, including hubs that were too close together, a mixed bag of airplanes from predecessor airlines, a bloated labor cost structure, and a route network that wasn't well-balanced. Their bankruptcies weren't a result of having over invested in their service product. Airways really needs to hire a visionary like Jim Whitehurst, who has made great strides at Delta in positioning that company for the future. The O and D traffic in Philadelphia is not the same customer demographic as PHX and LAS. Sadly, Airways, under current management, continues to alienate their best customers. Unless Senior Management reverses its continued downward spiral, their current profit picture will not be sustainable, long term.

 

[LCC_#1]

Jamake1
Excellent post!! I just wish Tempe would read this and take it to heart.

 

[vantheman63]

$7,000 for a Business Class ticket across the pond on an airline that delivers, is not crazy if you are a business traveler about to close a multi-million dollar deal.

Sadly, Airways, under current management, continues to alienate their best customers. Unless Senior Management reverses its continued downward spiral, their current profit picture will not be sustainable, long term.

EXACTLY! PERFECT! AMEN!!! VERY well stated.

I have this friend, I know him well....lets call him "Preston." Lets say Preston owns his own consulting biz that specializes in helping suppliers market high end, oh, lets call it, "wine" to people and business that purchase high end wine. And this Preston friend of mine does, oh, roughly $1,500,000 in sales....in a slower year...and my friend Preston travels, oh, say, 150,000 "EQM" per year at a cost to his business or around $35,000 to $40,000 for his own flying. That's less then 3% of Preston's overhead, air travel.

Now because "Preston" doesn't actually own the product (remember, he's only a consultant) he has very, very low overhead. His basic overhead is the expense of T&E and maybe 4 or 5 employees. And my friend Preston, when he travels as much as he does, he prefers to be comfortable AND productive.

Now, for my friend Preston, wine country is on the West Coast in the US...and in the Mediteranean region in Europe (Yes, I know wine is everywhere, this is just where Preston's clients are.) And my friend lives on the east coast. When he travels, he has NO problem buying F-Class...because, he wants to be comfortable and productive. So he does it.

To the point above, at less then 3% of his overhead, it's not a lot of money. Preston also like to have a nice car in the driveway, so his clients can be comfortable when they visit. In fact, he like to have 2 nice cars. Dresses decently, etc. That's not to brag for Preston, just so everyone can understand his mindset and purchasing patterns.

So, the point is this: While the rocket scientists at The Sand Castle continue to paint every customer into the same box and CONSTANTLY tell everyone what customers will and wont pay for, there are a number of people out there who are more "service oriented" then "cost driven."

Meanwhile, to the point of the quote above, there are PLENTY of people who make far more money then my friend Preston....who can and do afford and pay for good service. And the rocket scientists at The Sand Castle continue to lie to everyone.

Again, it's TOTALLY okay to be a slacker, crappy, dirty, outdated, non-performing product. NOTHING wrong with that at all! My friend Preston also owns a real estate company...that rents "affordable housing" (aka "not so nice housing") to lower income people...and the apartments are marketed and rented as such. But Preston DOES NOT waste anyone's time by pretending these are anything different then they are. Translation: Preston would be totally okay with the slacker, crappy, dirty, outdated, non-performing product US sells....as long as it doesn't cost "top dollar." And that's primarily why Preston avoids US like the plague, becuase the slacker, crappy, dirty, outdated, non-performing product is priced at the same price as, oh, CO or UA...that isn't a slacker, crappy, dirty, outdated, non-performing product.

There are lots of "Prestons" out there....and there are lots of people that BANK way more money then Preston. $1.5 Mill ain't that much money in sales, especially before expenses and taxes. And to insist and insult those people out there with slacker, crappy, dirty, outdated, non-performing product after taking their money? Well, that "business model" isn't sustainable and one of these days, that will come boomeranging back at them...for certain.

 

[OTslave]

Its frustrating for West employees to have to listen to continual complaints about how US Airways 'WAS". All of the cuts, service reductions, food changes all took place when US was a different airline. One of the big problems on this board is the fact that some people haven't figured out that their "grand" US Airways...is no longer around. Its a new airline, with an old name, a very old name and getting older everyday

it's ok to be "world class" but not if you're going bankrupt doing it. I think US has already been down that road.

Then dump the name and call it what it is "Ghetto Air", "Greyhound Air", "Trailhound Air". They need to decide they want to be. If you're a low cost carrier, then advertise yourself that way TOTALLY; so people don't have expectations of grandeur when your service and your product is crap. What hasn't been covered here is exactly what management has wanted to accomplish. That is to divide and conquer. Do you think they want any highly paid employees with experience and concern for the product? No. They want the old timers out, they want young ones who will work for less in. Don't fool yourselves. What this was and what this is will never be the same. And if you want to keep your sanity and reduce the acid reflux, get out. I did. There is life after US Airways.

 

[JAMAKE1]

Piney...Too rich!

 

[US1YFARE]

[quote name='PineyBob' date='Sep 26 2007, 12:07 AM' post='528072' even though my so called upgrade cleared. With F being what it is now it's kinda like getting promoted to Activities Director on the Titanic.
[/quote]
Dump the biatch and make the switch piney...you'll be glad you did