US Pilot Labor Thread, Aug.31st-Sep. 07

[fodase]

Keep telling yourselves all that crap if it makes you feel better. USAPA, under labor laws, can change and amend contracts with the company as the pilots' CBA, even the ones it inherited.

The RLA governs airline contracts, a detail that your "labor expert" lawyers apparently failed to grasp.

Is this on a docket somewhere? Please let me know when and where. I can use a good laugh.

Good catch! So how was jack stephan and the east pilots able to sue the west pilots in DC superiror court to vacate the Nicolau award?
Now you know why old jack stephan is named in the suit.

 

[Tiger 1050]

USAPA will be really hard pressed, since they do not determine furloughs.

That is true.

It is the company.

Also true.


The point that I believe was to be made was USAPA has a clear responsibility to enforce the TA! That document clearly stipulates furloughs must come from the 100 or so "new hires" first. USAPA has not addressed this and looks the other way while senior west pilots hit the street. Clearly DFR material. And obviously we will have a difference of opinion so let's just let the judge decide...

 

[EastUS]

And obviously we will have a difference of opinion so let's just let the judge decide...

That seems the most reasonable course to me as well.

 

[prechilill]

Point 3 - The NMB has ruled that both East and West are now one group as per RLA law so therefore your bargaining agent is now USAPA whether you like it or not. If you dont pay dues then they have no duty to represent you.

The Nicolai list is only a bargaining position established by the former union - it was never enacted with a new CBA and as such has no value whatsoever to the new bargaining agent - as your own attorney has so advised you of. The seniority section of the contract is no different than establishing vacation time, sick time , or crew meals. The list has to be a part of the contract to be enforced.

If the Nic is ever to be a part of a new contract the east will never vote it in so therefore even if USAPA were to accept it it will never come to be.

The "nic" was no more than a proposal that got left in the dust. Get used to it.

Two examples which highlight the "thinking" used by east pilot to rationalize USAPA's claims. The transition agreement is governing, not just one point of it but the agreement in its entirety. The seniority section has been completed, as described by the final and binding clause which the east pilots agreed to. It is here where USAPA believes (and got the masses to believe) they can classify the seniority integration as uncompleted business along with crew meals and schedules, when in fact the transition agreement mentions specifically the details of seniority integration between the two groups and does not mention how crew meals or scheduling will be conducted, save for the reference that the previous contracts are governing. The transition agreement handles the details specific to integrating the seniority lists and obtaining a combined collective bargaining agreement- it does not mention crew meals as you apparently believe. It talks about minimum fleet counts, furloughing, seniority integration and voting for a collective bargaining agreement. Two of these points are directly addressed and will be ruled on by the courts.

The most difficult challenge to Seham and the USAPA clones will be to present an argument to the judge that their side never agreed to a "final and binding" seniority arbitration, or that for some reason it should be invalidated. So far, they haven't done anything to negate or change any section of the transition agreement.

The poorly thought out furlough effort by Parker is the best opportunity the west was given to preserve the transition agreement in the court of law. It is here where Marty Harper brilliantly included the two claims which will be ruled on, specifically referencing the west's right to vote independent of the east on any CBA as unequivocally stated in the transition agreement. If the judge rules that the transition agreement is governing with the furloughs, for example, then the precedent has been established in a court of law specific to the AWA and AAA transition agreement that all points to it are unaltered and binding. To change any point subsequent to an agreement would require consent from all parties involved or a court order. So far, USAPA hasn't attempted to modify any section of the transition agreement.
When the courts hear these cases the hypothetical powers USAPA has granted itself (such as conveniently ignoring the furlough and separate CBA votes) will be ruled upon. My feeling is there will be a tremendous amount of questioning taking place out east. Let the unraveling begin...

 

[EastUS]

My feeling is there will be a tremendous amount of questioning taking place out east. Let the unraveling begin...

It's a pity for your position that your "feeling" counts for less than nothng at all out east, and such "feelings" as you've had haven't ever proven correct in any case. "Let the unraveling begin..."??? Is that to be properly placed up there with your "..the healing within your group can begin", that you projected just before the election, in the "certanty" that alpa would triumph? :blink:

No matter. Call us all when the issue's decided in court.....Yawn....

 

[BottomFeeder]

Are you serious? You are gonna "brag" about your "pension" in the middle of a discussion regarding the lawsuit?!?! Wow! You are really reaching. Sorry but that's just pathetic...

Wait this is a US Pilot Labor thread and not your website to only talk about the hail mary/ lawsuit to save you from the green mile.

Funny that you were looking for a fight when you posted "I'm surprised no one has commented on what happened yesterday! Shouldn't be long now..."

 

[cleardirect]

LOL, so the local Phoenix give-away paper writer only interviews AWA pilots, and she was so balanced! NOT
Guess she doesn't have the budget to make a few phone calls to hear from the other side. Maybe if the paper could get a few more of those "scintillating singles" ads, they could afford to dig a little deeper.

You know if you are going make up facts or lie about something you might not want to attach the evidence.

Read the article a little closer. Arnie from USAPA was quoted and an outside source. Robert Mann.

You want to point out what part was not balanced.

 

[Phoenix]

Plaintiff's REMEDY SOUGHT

WHEREFORE, the Plaintiffs seek the following relief:


A. An ORDER:

1. Precluding East Pilots from taking any steps toward negotiating a collective bargaining agreement that is inconsistent with fully implementing the Nicolau Award Single Seniority List;

2. Directing East Pilots to make good faith efforts to negotiate a single collective bargaining agreement that fully implements the Nicolau List;

If the plaintiff believes that NIC is "final and binding", why do they ask the judge to refer to NIC as an item within negotiations?

And how can the the judge order East Pilots to negotiate with the company (when the company can only enter into negotiations with the authorized bargaining agent?

 

[oldiebutgoody]

Good catch! So how was jack stephan and the east pilots able to sue the west pilots in DC superiror court to vacate the Nicolau award?
Now you know why old jack stephan is named in the suit.

In the USA, anybody can sue anyone else. That's the way it works. Winning a law suit is something else. Trying to use the court system as a weapon to prevent others from exercising their rights is a SLAPP lawsuit waiting to happen.

Jack Stephan talked about a lawsuit because he had to. It never occurred. ALPA is gone and so is the "nic". By the way, it was the East MEC vs. the West MEC, not pilot against pilot. I want to see how the leonidas clowns are gonna make THAT case stick. Looks pretty silly sueing your own representatives when you won't even participate in the union.

If this is the best that Leonidas and gang can come up with, they'd better quit while they're ahead. The only west folks that are gonna make out in this is their lawyer!

Do something constructive like donate the $1000/pilot to the Red Cross.

 

[prechilill]

If the plaintiff believes that NIC is "final and binding", why do they ask the judge to refer to NIC as an item within negotiations?

And how can the the judge order East Pilots to negotiate with the company (when the company can only enter into negotiations with the authorized bargaining agent?

You are misunderstanding what you are reading. The intent of the claim centers on this premise:


24. The contract underlying the Nicolau Arbitration is neither an agreement
between labor organizations subject to the Labor Management Relations Act, 29 U.S.C.
§§ 185, et seq., nor an agreement between an air carrier and its employees subject to the
Railway Labor Act, 45 U.S.C. §§ 151, et seq.
25. The Nicolau Arbitration was neither subject to federal labor law, nor
conducted by a federal agency or administrative body.

The actionable claim sought by the plaintiffs is for the courts to recognize 24 and 25. All the west needs is for the courts do recognize the Nicolau arbitration and then USAPA doesn't have much to argue a counter claim with. Contracts are usually upheld by the courts unless there is a legitimate counter claim. Although the entire seniority dispute was resolved months before USAPA showed up, the list was accepted by the company and it was determined to be fair and equitable. So if you want to invalidate Nicolau you will have a tough argument to make in front of a judge. The seniority dispute in the court's eyes will probably be that the issue has been settled, as agreed to by your own party. Your union has yet to challenge one tenet of the TA with the company, let alone in court, but maybe that will change. The west is giving USAPA an opportunity to challenge the transition agreement in the court of law. I am looking forward to hearing Seham's argument.

 

[fodase]

In the USA, anybody can sue anyone else. That's the way it works. Winning a law suit is something else. Trying to use the court system as a weapon to prevent others from exercising their rights is a SLAPP lawsuit waiting to happen.

That is exactly what usapa is doing right against the cactus pilots, they lost and continue to file frivolous suits.

Jack Stephan talked about a lawsuit because he had to. It never occurred. ALPA is gone and so is the "nic". By the way, it was the East MEC vs. the West MEC, not pilot against pilot. I want to see how the leonidas clowns are gonna make THAT case stick. Looks pretty silly sueing your own representatives when you won't even participate in the union.

No Jack filed a lawsuit, in it he as an east pilot, sued a west pilots to vacate the Nic. That fact alone establishes that the Nic was a contract between pilots regardless of who represents you.

If this is the best that Leonidas and gang can come up with, they'd better quit while they're ahead. The only west folks that are gonna make out in this is their lawyer!

Do something constructive like donate the $1000/pilot to the Red Cross.

There are no guarantees in a court of law, but I urge to read both complaints at www.armyofleonidas.org and make you own assessment.

 

[Phoenix]

You are misunderstanding what you are reading. ..

Actually you didn't read my questions or answer them.

I understood the premise.

Even if the court agrees with every argument of the plaintiff, how is the judge legally authorized to order the remedy requested?

"East Pilots" (as defined by the plaintiffs) don't have any authority to negotiate with anyone for anything. The only thing "East Pilots" get to do is vote.. just like the "West Pilots".

Perhaps the plaintiff meant to ask the judge to order "East Pilots" to vote for nothing except a contract that includes the NIC.

Or maybe they meant to ask the judge to order USAPA to adopt the NIC as their negotiating position.. in spite of the common knowledge that "West Pilots" refuse to join the union and wouldn't have a vote on a contract that would implement NIC, even if USAPA were to secure such a contract proposal.

In order to have legal standing, it must be likely, as opposed to merely speculative, that a favorable court decision will redress the alleged injury. The judge might be a little confused about how he can redress anything even if he were to accept all of the complaint.

 

[FL430]

This is getting better every day!

Isnt airline labor law governed by thr Railway Labor Act? And aren't union workers covered under such required to settle these type of things with the grievance process BEFORE submitting such claims to federal court? And if you are not a member of the union how can you presuppose that said union failed in its duty to represent you if you didnt even follow the required grievance process?

I suspect that the judge in the Arizona federal court will throw out the suits for being in the wrong venue.

Additionally, no matter who the judge is in whatever court may finally decide this the East guys still get to vote on any contract that may or may not contain the Nic. Guess which way the vote will go..........

Do you guys really think Parker did not ask the U S Airways corporate attorneys what the ramifications would be if the west guys did in fact call him on this?

Just keep handing your money to your attorneys......they have only begun to drain your pockets!

 

[Tiger 1050]

Funny that you were looking for a fight when you posted "I'm surprised no one has commented on what happened yesterday! Shouldn't be long now..."

Okay, fair enough. I can see how it may have come across that way. But in all honesty I was genuinely surprised that there was no comment! You folks out east have your little snitches and you usually are on this crap like white on rice... Not looking for a fight friend. Just surprised...

 

[Tiger 1050]

Just keep handing your money to your attorneys......they have only begun to drain your pockets!

You as well sir! Ya' know with the assessments coming and all...