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US Pilot Labor Thread, Aug.31st-Sep. 07

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Seriously kids..we can and should be able to freely disagree, and speak on anything as best suits our perspectives.....period. If feathers get ruffled? = Big Deal. We can call each other on whatever did..and get on with the points at hand.

Completely agree! Unfortunately most seem to have "instability" in their "self esteem" resulting in exaggerated "knee jerk" reactions that attempt to "melt" their opponent before our very eyes... Ha! Seriously though... Sometimes I feel these issues will never be resolved on this board so why even throw tomatoes at each other.
 
Completely agree! Unfortunately most seem to have "instability" in their "self esteem" resulting in exaggerated "knee jerk" reactions that attempt to "melt" their opponent before our very eyes... Ha! Seriously though... Sometimes I feel these issues will never be resolved on this board so why even throw tomatoes at each other.

I sometimes wish that I were a sufficiently humble individual so as to go with the first part in any way, but...certainly have tossed out enough knee jerk reactions myself to get your point....and NO..nothing's going to be "fixed" herein..but..I don't discount the usefullness of at least exchanging ideas/notions..even taunts at times. People forward and shape their actions based upon untold levels of complexities within emotions, hopefully some logic, and personal experience. Imho..It's not possible to effect changes in the thoughts and behaviors of anyone, much less any groups, without necessarilly allowing all such into play.
 
May I add, if someone is inclined to research, this is one of many times you cried for a moderator and accused me of a personal attack when I tried to keep you honest.


FYI- The Moderator did his own thing. Sorry to disappoint you.
 
The strategy of vacating the psa routes was very beneficial for usairways at that time.
Whatever happened to the $300,000,000.00 he spent for PSA?

Very beneficial-taxiing crews from LAX to Fresno-like they knew where Fresno was.. Limoing? from LAX to SNA in the middle of rush hour -those flights didn't last long. Apparently "Uncle Ed" has never met PVD to FLL Pax when it comes to paying nothing.

If he was such a decisive manager maybe he should have seen WN coming. It seems that WN handed "Uncle Ed's" head to him on a platter and served it up with a side of BWI and a PIT for dessert.
 
Whatever happened to the $300,000,000.00 he spent for PSA?

Very beneficial-taxiing crews from LAX to Fresno-like they knew where Fresno was.. Limoing? from LAX to SNA in the middle of rush hour -those flights didn't last long. Apparently "Uncle Ed" has never met PVD to FLL Pax when it comes to paying nothing.

If he was such a decisive manager maybe he should have seen WN coming. It seems that WN handed "Uncle Ed's" head to him on a platter and served it up with a side of BWI and a PIT for dessert.

Their was talk of bears and bases in your post below, you answered your own question over a year ago.

Be Careful What You Wish For.
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Posted on: Apr 20 2007, 01:31 PM


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The personal issues in PIT do not resonate with many who were "right sized" in the past. It is unfortunate , but not something new to many at this company.
The macro view regarding PIT has'nt changed for years. When UAL was in the mix, the future of PIT was in doubt. When there were 5(count them 5!) bases within 500 hundred miles of each other you knew something had to give. "Sometimes you get the bear and sometimes the bear gets you." Apparently the old U as well as LCC see the money in PHL. It's difficult to put things in the past and look to the future.
Good Luck.
 
With today being Labor Day and all, I thought I would interject a thought here with your indulgence.

I have always said that the only way that this company was going to survive, and perhaps thrive, was going to be if management realized that the employees and customers are the most vital assets they have in achieving same, not the liabilities that you and we are treated like. In this case, however, labor has taken a different turn, and instead of fighting for proper treatment by the company, they are fighting amongst themselves. The energy which is going into the constant east/west bickering is amazing--it could probably fuel the entire fleet for a month or more.

Instead of seeing labor coming together toward a common goal (a single contract which may not be perfect but represents fairness and EQUAL sacrifice on both sides), we are seeing labor fighting labor here. I am not going to get into which side is right and which side is wrong because it does not matter at this point. The fact is that this squabbling is NOT productive to you, the pilots on either side, nor will it help you achieve your ultimate goals. It is, however contributing to the ultimate demise of your airline, whether you like it or not.

I realize I don't have a dog in this fight, but on behalf of your customers, former customers, and especially ALL of the fine people on the front line at US Airways, I would implore you ALL to take a second look at what you're doing, from the outside if you can, and see if there is not a better way to go about this. Your fight should be with management, not with each other.

The higher costs associated with the two operating groups and the inability to work as one unit at this time are crippling the chances for long term survival of this company and have forced management to cut more than other airlines, and to make STUPID decision, which have ticked off customers far more than those of other airlines. It's the old save a penny, cost a dime syndrome all over again.

In the end, I believe that this fight among the two pilot groups will be a major contributor to the ultimate end of US Airways. While I do respect that both sides may have valid points, the BIGGER picture is that unless they can find a way to work together SOMEHOW, they may ALL be unemployed within the next year--along with ALL the other employees of this company.

I think this would be the perfect time to show some solidarity at this time--management is against the wall--between firing top executives (who deserved to go anyway but that's not the point), and the cash crunch which is looming in the immediate future, you should be thinking of finding a way to throw them an olive branch--lower costs and improved efficiencies NOW in exchange for a contract that is FAIR to ALL.

Just my thoughts--I do wish EACH and EVERY employee of US Airways nothing but the best, and I sincerely hope this company is around to see another Labor Day....

My BEST to you all.
 
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The higher costs associated with the two operating groups and the inability to work as one unit at this time are crippling the chances for long term survival of this company and have forced management to cut more than other airlines, and to make STUPID decision, which have ticked off customers far more than those of other airlines. It's the old save a penny, cost a dime syndrome all over again.

In the end, I believe that this fight among the two pilot groups will be a major contributor to the ultimate end of US Airways.

Art,

Thanks for putting the blame on the pilots again. I would guess that you view all problems in the industry are the direct result of the pilots and not the management. Would it be a fair guess that you are in management at some company?

If you are going to throw out bold statements then back it up with numbers. Please give us the figures on how much it cost/saves the company money with seperate operations or combined operations.

Art show me the money!
 
Art, you belong to FFocus, a group that is quoted as recommending its members not to fly Usairways.
Yet you blame the pilots. Confusing. One of your groups quote below made on June 13th.

"As a result of the recent actions announced by the management team at US Airways, it is with great sadness and reluctance that we ask our membership and all who fly US Airways to please direct their business elsewhere."




Arts group web site
 
The higher costs associated with the two operating groups and the inability to work as one unit at this time are crippling the chances for long term survival of this company and have forced management to cut more than other airlines, and to make STUPID decision, which have ticked off customers far more than those of other airlines. It's the old save a penny, cost a dime syndrome all over again.

Your good wishes are always appreciated sir. These are very troubled times for the industry at large, and certainly for US individually. Employee group cohesion's much to be desired, especially during such trying times as these. Where I'm lost here is that I do not see where it's appropriate to fix blame on the employees at any level, for the failings of management in not earnestly negotiating for a combined contract, nor for any/all stupid decisions made higher up. No employees are forcing anyone into making stupid decisions, nor even have the power to do so.......The decisions to have maintained disparate pay and seperate operations certainly aren't the doings of the rank and file. Had the involved executives been less intent on amassing their own ridiculously obscene, personal compensation, and instead, immediately sought to pay and treat the line pilots at all fairly, the current scenario could have been completely avoided by expeditious negotiations within the very first stages of the merger process. The poisonous seniority issue wouldn't have even had time to yet raise it's head, had that been done. You can't fix stupid, shortsighted, or even just greedy beyond words......I'm at an utter loss to see how any of the problems resulting from such are at all attributable to the line workers.
 
Hey Art, might I suggest you leave our website and go complain about whoever it is you like to fly now. The pilots just work here. :down: And always remember what ever you are paying on any airline is not enough. It' the fares STUPID!!!!!!!!!
 
nostradamus said:
Art, you belong to FFocus...N924PS...

Dang, Nostra, glad Im not on your bad side this week. Your on a roll. But one correction, looks like oil isnt going through the roof. As I post this, Himicane Gustav isnt quite as nasty as predicted.

On this week's topics, mcIvenna showed his lack spine in playing "a friend wanted me to ask" the question about East wasting fuel. Parker put him down easy. This was their leader? Hiding behind a friend.

I couldnt believe the fool who ranted about the "East/West 6." Team Parker tried to explain one of the simplest concepts in the TA. An East pilot who is recalled to the West ends up on the bottom of the West list. But if he gets furloughed, he can go back East and use his seniority there, displacing an East pilot junior to him. No matter how many attempts at it, Team Parker couldnt convince Captain "T-Shirt" that those 6 had no relevance to West furloughs.

Another Team Parker argument that wasnt getting thru to the West faithfull was the fact these furloughs are long-term. Until retirements resume, there is no attrition. Their looking for short term gimmcks to solve an entrenced long term problem.

Last, the company will live up to its obligations on the dues refusenicks. They wont take a chance on USAPA going to the NMB if they fail to provide termination letters. Team Glass knows what's at stake. If the company fails to comply, USAPA can go to the NMB and claim the violation is bad faith and a Major Dispute, not just a minor dispute. NMB doesnt like bad faith too much. If the NMB agrees its a major dispute, we're in Section 6 negotiations. The West CP can say all he wants that no ones ever ben fired for not paying dues. I'm sure that's true. ALPO never had the guts to fire anyone. Ultimately its going to be a gut check for the first West pilot presented with a termination letter at the gate. That happened to one of my transition classmates about five years ago. Met by the CP and the CLT Rep at the gate, his choice was gate termination, with a replacemnt FO at the gate and two security guys to escort him off the property. He signed the promissory note at the gate and agreed to due check-off. snooper
 
On this week's topics, mcIvenna showed his lack spine in playing "a friend wanted me to ask" the question about East wasting fuel. Parker put him down easy. This was their leader? Hiding behind a friend.

That pathetic BS just floored me. Having not heard that fellow speak before..well..I was a bit underwhelmed, to say the least. Well..my "friend" supposedly told me, so it must be true on all counts, and the case is now closed. Translation for the event = "I'm entitled to make blind, unsupported accusations, entirely based upon BS, and expect all to swallow such, as I desperately lick management shoe soles in a vain attempt to curry favors"....Sure thing. I wouldn't trust any such speaker to walk an even semi-tough chihuahua, for fear the beast would get the better of him, and both would never be seen again. The dog would be missed. Well..at least I can understand the mindset of some out west a bit better now = This "person" qualified as the "leader" for the "All Out Warfare"?? = Hokay...I get it now. 🙄
 
I am somewhat amazed by what I am reading here. I made a statement which was in support of labor--in no way shape or form was I blaming ANY labor group or employee for the situation the company is in. I CERTAINLY was not blaming the pilot group for ANYTHING.

I was merely making an observation that IF you folks could work things out and get a single contract, the improved efficiencies and single work group MIGHT help the situation.

If you read closely, I did mention that the employees are the most important ASSET the company has, followed by the customers. I don't know how you could say I am BLAMING the pilots, but I will say that is indicative of the problem--some of you seem to want to pick a fight rather than fix things....and I am sorry if you took my comments that way but I was trying to be CONSTRUCTIVE not DESTRUCTIVE.

I guess things are too far gone after all......

And, Luv, I wasn't COMPLAINING about anything--I was just trying to be in little insightful and make a couple of observations. For the record, I totallly blame the (mis)management team in Tempe for the current state of the company..most of you know that, which is why some of the comments are somewhat surprising.

And you are correct--FFOCUS DID recommend booking away--after the company itself thumbed its nose at the people who pay an inordinate share of the bills--high yield business customers. When a management team says "we'll take from you first and we don't care if you leave" (which their ACTIONS clearly stated), then I feel it appropriate to grant their wish.

And you are right--it IS the fares stupid. Meaning RATIONAL sensible fares which allow the company to make some money but at the same time don't gouge the last minute traveler.
Rational fares yield higher AVERAGE fares. WN can do it with a max of 5 fares in a market.
Add for the additional costs of a major network airline and adopt a similar system.. It can work.
 
Mega, USAPA cannot go to the NMB for it to declare it a major dispute, the union would have to go to Federal Court for that.

And no court would delcare that a major dispute as it is not chaging your CBA.

We at the IAM got a major dispute when they farmed out the Airbus, but then it was overturned on appeal and sent to arbitration.

The RLA categorizes all labor disputes as either "major" disputes, which concern the making or modification of the collective bargaining agreement between the parties, or "minor" disputes, which involve the interpretation or application of collective bargaining agreements. Unions can strike over major disputes only after they have exhausted the RLA's "almost interminable" negotiation and mediation procedures. They cannot, on the other hand, strike over minor disputes, either during the arbitration procedures or after an award is issued.

The federal courts have the power to enjoin a strike over a major dispute if the union has not exhausted the RLA's negotiation and mediation procedures. The Norris-LaGuardia Act dictates the procedures that the court must follow. Once the NMB releases the parties from mediation, however, they retain the power to engage in strikes or lockouts, even if they subsequently resume negotiations or the NMB offers mediation again.

The federal courts likewise have the power to enjoin a union from striking over arbitrable disputes. The court may, on the other hand, also require the employer to restore the status quo as a condition of any injunctive relief against a strike.
 
ALPO never had the guts to fire anyone. Ultimately its going to be a gut check for the first West pilot presented with a termination letter at the gate. That happened to one of my transition classmates about five years ago. Met by the CP and the CLT Rep at the gate, his choice was gate termination, with a replacemnt FO at the gate and two security guys to escort him off the property. He signed the promissory note at the gate and agreed to due check-off. snooper

Wasn't it a CLT ALPA rep?
 
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