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US Pilot Labor Thread, Aug.31st-Sep. 07

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Mega, USAPA cannot go to the NMB for it to declare it a major dispute, the union would have to go to Federal Court for that.

And no court would delcare that a major dispute as it is not chaging your CBA.

My bad, I should have said Federal court. No telling what a court will do. Your right, gross bad faith allows a union access to the courts. The company is going to allow agency fee delinquency. If they do, youll see an onslaught of dues refusenicks from every union on property. And that will lead to chaos. Think about it.

To Art at ISP:

The higher costs associated with the two operating groups and the inability to work as one unit at this time are crippling the chances for long term survival of this company and have forced management to cut more than other airlines, and to make STUPID decision, which have ticked off customers far more than those of other airlines. It's the old save a penny, cost a dime syndrome all over again. In the end, I believe that this fight among the two pilot groups will be a major contributor to the ultimate end of US Airways. In this case, however, labor has taken a different turn, and instead of fighting for proper treatment by the company, they are fighting amongst themselves. The energy which is going into the constant east/west bickering is amazing--it could probably fuel the entire fleet for a month or more.

Not really. For the last two years the company has ben saying that the final combination will only save them another $20-30 million. Pay parity for the East alone adds over $100 million in costs. Regarding this alleged East/West battle, from our side of the Mississippi, its only being fought out on web boards like this by a limited number of posters. Just listen to the West Training Center Parker meetings. Its clear where the on-line fighting is coming from. "We hate you," said one, refering to not only East, but Lyle Hogg. snooper
 
I am somewhat amazed by what I am reading here. I made a statement which was in support of labor--in no way shape or form was I blaming ANY labor group or employee for the situation the company is in. I CERTAINLY was not blaming the pilot group for ANYTHING.

I was merely making an observation that IF you folks could work things out and get a single contract, the improved efficiencies and single work group MIGHT help the situation.

If you read closely, I did mention that the employees are the most important ASSET the company has, followed by the customers. I don't know how you could say I am BLAMING the pilots, but I will say that is indicative of the problem--some of you seem to want to pick a fight rather than fix things....and I am sorry if you took my comments that way but I was trying to be CONSTRUCTIVE not DESTRUCTIVE.

I guess things are too far gone after all......

And, Luv, I wasn't COMPLAINING about anything--I was just trying to be in little insightful and make a couple of observations. For the record, I totallly blame the (mis)management team in Tempe for the current state of the company..most of you know that, which is why some of the comments are somewhat surprising.

And you are correct--FFOCUS DID recommend booking away--after the company itself thumbed its nose at the people who pay an inordinate share of the bills--high yield business customers. When a management team says "we'll take from you first and we don't care if you leave" (which their ACTIONS clearly stated), then I feel it appropriate to grant their wish.

And you are right--it IS the fares stupid. Meaning RATIONAL sensible fares which allow the company to make some money but at the same time don't gouge the last minute traveler.
Rational fares yield higher AVERAGE fares. WN can do it with a max of 5 fares in a market.
Add for the additional costs of a major network airline and adopt a similar system.. It can work.



I have serious doubt whether some of the posters here have any interest in seeing US Airways survive. They are so consumed with hate for each other and their "me, me, me" attitudes, they cannot see anything else. A few posters here could use psychiatic help.
 
I have serious doubt whether some of the posters here have any interest in seeing US Airways survive. They are so consumed with hate for each other and their "me, me, me" attitudes, they cannot see anything else. A few posters here could use psychiatic help.

L1011,

How pompus and condescending. I gather you are the only person left to live on the planet as anyone else's thoughts, opinions or beliefs have no value.
 
A friend of mine who could not be here told me that he was concerned that although the west side is saying the east side is not listening to their needs, he is concerned that the west side is non concerned what the east side is saying. This person was concerned about the following message that the west side is sending.



""Leonidas Update for August 31 2008 Dear former AWA pilots,

This letter is written in response to a recent email publication dated August 30, 2008. Before we address the inaccuracies contained therein, we would first like to give a status report as to where we are on Sunday, August 31st.

As we write this, two complaints are being finalized against USAPA. These complaints are the product of earnest research and much consideration by a trio of highly talented, and very experienced attorneys. You will have an opportunity to read the complaints within a matter of days, as we will publish both on this website immediately after they are filed. We will not disclose exactly when, of where these complaints will be filed, as all former AWA pilots, in addition to USAPA, and certain East pilots will find out soon enough.

The point is that we will finally be going to court over a matter which should have been settled long ago. While we cannot guarantee success, we would ike to point out that there is every reason in the world to trust our justice system. We are not historians, but we will submit that a principal reason for America's endurance for over two hundred years has been our rule of law. This system exists for many good reasons; one being to function as a reminder that an obligation is simply an obligation. What we have been dealing with since May 3rd, 2007 is one of those exact situations requiring a reminder- this is not the first time, and likely not last time where something like this will occur.

We urge all former AWA pilots to keep the proper perspective, as the wheels of justice could turn slowly in this matter. Try not to make this personal, as the reality is that this dispute will soon be heard in the one place which was designed to handle these situations. It will be the AWA pilots, USAPA, a few others, and a judge. There will be no more danger of third party intermeddlers trying to convince us to bargain away our rights in exchange for nothing in return.

Now, as for this latest “news publication,â€￾ we want to be clear that no party speaks for Leonidas, other than Leonidas itself. We do not operate this organization with a political bent, and we will not draw from a political bag of tricks to send hidden messages. We therefore submit the following:

Leonidas disagrees with the inference that AWAPPA and Leonidas are in a vicious battle. This has been a regular theme from this publication, which many AWA pilots read, and it is a blatant mis-characterization. Both organizations have had the best interest of the former AWA pilots in mind, and our differences have been primarily philosophical and strategic. We do all share the same goal, which is to protect the AWA pilots from those who would take from us that which we are legally entitled. In any case, AWAPPA has made it’s intent to step aside public on a couple of occasions now, therefore whatever dispute that might be contrived between the two organizations will soon be rendered moot nonetheless.

“U-Turnâ€￾ mentioned the fact that AWAPPA has yet to release any funds for the prosecution of the legal claims soon to be brought forward by Leonidas. This is technically correct, and when our claims are filed, they will have been created and developed with the exclusive support and financing of Leonidas LLC and our contributors to date.

While AWAPPA has made it clear that they intend to release funds for this effort, this has yet to take place, and no firm timeline or protocol has been established for the transfer of assets. It is important to understand that whatever funds become available from AWAPPA could be insufficient to see this legal campaign through to the end if it is required to go the full distance. We must be prepared to go that full distance in any case. Therefore, we request that all AWA pilots consider committing at least one-thousand dollars to this cause, which would allow us to consider the AWAPPA funds as necessary contingency fuel.

Lastly, we do not feel that John McIlvenna’s personal campaign is a major impediment to our future success, and will only remind AWA pilots who might be relying on John as a savior at this late date to consider other options. He has had more than long enough to provide us with a workable solution.""

Sincerely,

Co-founders of Leonidas LLC
 
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Why would your friend be concerned? After all the Nic. is long gone, isn't it?
 
Only if we were still in ALPA....







AIR LINE PILOTS ASSOCIATION, INTERNATIONAL

102ND REGULAR EXECUTIVE BOARD MEETING

September 9-10, 2008


SUBJECT
National Seniority Protocol

SOURCE
UAL MEC

BACKGROUND INFORMATION
See proposed resolution.

PROPOSED RESOLUTION
WHEREAS the Air Line Pilots Association has been at the forefront of pilot labor representation in the airline industry since 1931, and has consistently been the champion of safety protocols that assure our passengers have the safest transportation system possible, and

WHEREAS the 77 year history of ALPA is replete with examples of bold decisions made by ALPA leaders in order to assure that measures, necessary to protect the economic bargaining rights and professional interests of its members, have been instituted and that the best interests of the profession have been secured, and,

WHEREAS opportunities to make significant and enduring policy changes that enhance the professional opportunities of every ALPA member come along rarely and are often precipitated by industry destabilizing events like those brought to bear on ALPA members with The Airline Deregulation Act of 1978, the September 11th acts of war, the bankruptcy era, and the current manipulated inflation of the price of petroleum, and

WHEREAS the most unfulfilled professional benefit, recognized by all airline pilots and by ALPA members specifically, is the lack of a policy, derived from fundamental union principals, that enables and enforces the individual members’ ability to transfer their seniority, longevity, and operational experience as professionals from one airline employer to another, thereby allowing a manipulation of their entire career path by the actions of the very same capitalist cabal whose fundamental goal is to limit, degrade and minimize the essential role of pilots to the airline industry, and

WHEREAS parochial company loyalty, historically embraced by ALPA pioneers of previous eras, has been perverted and used against ALPA members as a capitalist leveraging tool that stifles the inherent right of professional pilots to collectively negotiate an economically sound and stable ratio of pay and work rules for identical job responsibilities using the continual underlying threat of losing the earned seniority benefits derived from their professional longevity at a particular airline while being compared to the economics of another airline (whipsawing), and

WHEREAS the fundamental principal of national seniority does not conflict with the current or future job prospects of pilots but instead extends a common system of advancement to be used at every ALPA carrier and bonds all ALPA pilots to the profession instead of to an individual airline; a national seniority list would assure a logical and rational adherence to a measurable, protected status of those pilots from a commonly defined starting point in their professional careers regardless of how many airlines may exist, regardless of the skill and economic acumen of the managements that run them, and regardless of the transient political influence of the day, and

WHEREAS the career security of any pilot who was able to transfer his seniority to another air carrier would liberate ALPA pilots and forever eliminate the ability of management to whipsaw or erode ALPA unity based on loss of job threats, economic fear or arbitrary merger awards, based on a perceived surviving carrier analogy, thus enabling ALPA to negotiate wages and work rules at all airlines based on the pilots’ collective evaluation of their true contribution and economic value to an air carrier,

THEREFORE BE IT RESOLVED that the Executive Board acknowledges this historic and momentous opportunity in time when several key air carrier contract amendable dates are so closely aligned, and which could be coordinated as part of this undertaking, that will launch a historic, new career security protocol for all ALPA pilots and by design, realign the true interests and career expectations of every pilot represented by ALPA both now and in the future, and

BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that the development of a national seniority protocol be assigned to a select National Seniority Committee (NSC) consisting of the President of ALPA; one pilot from each represented pilot group within group A, to be appointed by the Master Chairman of each MEC of the group; and one pilot representing each group designation: B1, B2, B3, B4 and C, each of whom shall be appointed by a consensus of the MEC Master Chairmen from each of the pilot groups represented within a classification; for a total of 11 members, and

BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that the National Seniority Committee will establish a single national seniority protocol that will be used to establish two separate lists reflecting the Canadian ALPA pilots and the United States ALPA pilots, and

BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that the protocol for an ALPA national seniority list will be developed by the NSC under a rigid timeline with a specific date for completion in 2009, and using a simple and transparent methodology that defines a starting point common to all professional air line pilots from which all seniority benefits and longevity will derive, and,

BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that without discrimination to any pilot, the NSC will set and fix a methodology recognizing “benchmarks of career achievementâ€￾ with associated “exercise rightsâ€￾ in order to minimize unrealistic windfalls/detriments to any pilot unless and until those common benchmarks have been met, regardless of whether the benchmarks have been achieved at an ALPA carrier or not, and

BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that upon completion of the protocol, the NSC will present a single, unified explanation of the developed protocol to all ALPA members, and all other represented professional pilot groups, using all available communication tools before preferably submitting the NSC proposal for ALPA-wide membership ratification, Roll Call by the governing body, or the applicable rules as stipulated in the ALPA Constitution and By Laws, and

BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that upon adoption as ALPA policy by the proper authorizing internal ALPA mechanisms, the national seniority protocol will be enforced as of that date and no ALPA Collective Bargaining Agreement will be signed by the President of the Association without full inclusion of this policy as a part thereof.
 
Why did it take the loss of the USAirways pilot group to get ALPA to make this resolution. It should have been out there 6 months ago.

MM
 
Only if we were still in ALPA....

AIR LINE PILOTS ASSOCIATION, INTERNATIONAL
102ND REGULAR EXECUTIVE BOARD MEETING
September 9-10, 2008

SUBJECT
National Seniority Protocol

SOURCE
UAL MEC

It's a pipe dream, Elevation. And itll be nothing more than ALPA politics as usual, each dog grabbing for a chunk of the bone. Theyll be quality "points" for flying a wide-body, partial points for being on an RJ, arguments over when it started, DOH or LOS, adnaseum. But in the end, one way to guarantee a stalemate at the table is to tell a company who they have to hire. This isnt just about DOH in a merger. This a true union hall, a union telling a company who they will hire and in what seat, with what seniority. No companys going to buy off on it.

Read what their advocating:

WHEREAS the career security of any pilot who was able to transfer his seniority to another air carrier would liberate ALPA pilots

the NSC will set and fix a methodology recognizing “benchmarks of career achievementâ€￾ with associated “exercise rightsâ€￾ in order to minimize unrealistic windfalls/detriments

preferably submitting the NSC proposal for ALPA-wide membership ratification

BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that upon adoption as ALPA policy by the proper authorizing internal ALPA mechanisms, the national seniority protocol will be enforced as of that date and no ALPA Collective Bargaining Agreement will be signed by the President of the Association without full inclusion of this policy as a part thereof.


I'm sure SWA, AMR, UPS, AirTran and the other non-ALPA carriers/unions are going to jump right on that band wagon, NOT! Snooper
 
Only if we were still in ALPA....
AIR LINE PILOTS ASSOCIATION, INTERNATIONAL
102ND REGULAR EXECUTIVE BOARD MEETING
September 9-10, 2008
SUBJECT
National Seniority Protocol

SOURCE
UAL MEC

BACKGROUND INFORMATION
See proposed resolution.
PROPOSED RESOLUTION

is the lack of a policy, derived from fundamental union principals, that enables and enforces the individual members’ ability to transfer their seniority, longevity, and operational experience as professionals from one airline employer to another, thereby allowing a manipulation of their entire career path by the actions of the very same capitalist cabal whose fundamental goal is to limit, degrade and minimize the essential role of pilots to the airline industry, and

WHEREAS parochial company loyalty, historically embraced by ALPA pioneers of previous eras, has been perverted and used against ALPA members as a capitalist leveraging tool that stifles the inherent right of professional pilots to collectively negotiate an economically sound and stable ratio of pay and work rules for identical job responsibilities using the continual underlying threat of losing the earned seniority benefits derived from their professional longevity at a particular airline while being compared to the economics of another airline (whipsawing), and
If ALPA is saying what I think, they are saying ALPA realizes and finally recognize seniority and the whipsawing of the industry by express
 
Logistically improbable...ALPA can't even agree or stick to a merger policy...imagine them agreeing on a methodology of national seniority? Hey, why not just go with DOH?...what about 300 guys hired nationwide on the same day..all flying narrowbodies...some 73's...some airbuses...then what do they go by? zodiac sign?

sounds great....

It's obvious to me that ALPA is concerned about more pilot groups "getting out of the barn"....so this might keep them intrigued for awhile....

I don't see it happening. Don't get me wrong...it would solve some real issues...but had it's best chance of happening prior to deregulation. Now, when a kid gets his license, he "signs on" with ALPA...gets a number...and waits to get hired somewhere...who "brokers" that hiring? ALPA?..what about payscales? Does Jimmy get to make more 'cause he got hired at XYZ airlines who pays more?...even though Danny is senior to him but works at ABC airlines...who pays less?

Not in my lifetime.
 
Logistically improbable...ALPA can't even agree or stick to a merger policy...imagine them agreeing on a methodology of national seniority? Hey, why not just go with DOH?...what about 300 guys hired nationwide on the same day..all flying narrowbodies...some 73's...some airbuses...then what do they go by? zodiac sign?

sounds great....

It's obvious to me that ALPA is concerned about more pilot groups "getting out of the barn"....so this might keep them intrigued for awhile....

I don't see it happening. Don't get me wrong...it would solve some real issues...but had it's best chance of happening prior to deregulation. Now, when a kid gets his license, he "signs on" with ALPA...gets a number...and waits to get hired somewhere...who "brokers" that hiring? ALPA?..what about payscales? Does Jimmy get to make more 'cause he got hired at XYZ airlines who pays more?...even though Danny is senior to him but works at ABC airlines...who pays less?

Not in my lifetime.

Party pooper.
 
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