US Pilot Labor Thread, Aug.31st-Sep. 07

[ussnark]

I don't see it happening. Don't get me wrong...it would solve some real issues...but had it's best chance of happening prior to deregulation. Now, when a kid gets his license, he "signs on" with ALPA...gets a number...and waits to get hired somewhere...who "brokers" that hiring? ALPA?..what about payscales? Does Jimmy get to make more 'cause he got hired at XYZ airlines who pays more?...even though Danny is senior to him but works at ABC airlines...who pays less?

I wonder if ALPA were a "pure" union shop, whether that situation would ever occur?

The union itself would regulate the pay and not the companies. In essence, an airline would pay x dollars for so many pilots, just like outsourcing any department.

The bright spot is it would put the word, accountability, back into airline management. It would bring Darwin and Adam Smith back into the corporate boardrooms, removing the union "skirt" they hide behind.

 

[Freighterguynow]

What do you think your chances of getting hired will be when the pilot doing the interview realizes you will slide onto the list above him?

 

[tazz]

.
The airline pilots association has continually backed Mr mcIvenna as someone who was representative of their heart and soul of airline pilots in general.

Quite incorrect. Most of the AWA pilots view McIlvenna as the politician and weasel that he is. Long before usapa AWA would have had an in house union, awapa. The main reason that it did not happen, and it was close, was that McIlvenna was involved in creating the new union and most people did not trust him.

ALPA had no love for him and neither do a majority of AWA pilots. His performance at that meeting surprises no one and defines him pretty well.

 

[Leonidas]

A pilots response to ted reed


To: Ted Reed, TheStreet.com Staff Reporter

Mr. Reed, once again you left out the “rest of the storyâ€. It sure would be nice if our responses to your articles were printed even if you have to split them up into several articles over the course of a week.

Let me say up front, I’m an America West pilot and will be until I leave this organization. In your article dated September 2nd, 2008 “US Air Pilots Union Tackles Familiar Problems†you only mentioned the “East†side of the story. Now I know you have a SPECIAL place in your heart for the east, but as a reporter I would have thought you would want to get the WHOLE and COMPLETE story and not just print 10% of the facts. So let me run down just a few of the items you failed to mention in your article.

Seniority list was the first item you brought up so let me give you a brief history of what really happened. The seniority list for the merged airline was supposed to be completed by April 2006. Both the East and the West groups failed to come to an agreed solution. Therefore, as part of the Transition Agreement (TA), signed by the East pilots, the West pilots and the Company, this item went to arbitration. It is very critical at this point that everyone realize that the TA stated the results of any arbitration would be FINAL AND BINDING. Remember, all parties agreed to this statement in the Transition agreement.

After a delay in getting the Arbitrator, the arbitration started in the fall of 2006 and was completed in Feb 2007. Mr. George Nicolau was the arbitrator and again it’s important to note that both the East and the West pilots agreed to this arbitrator. Mr. Nicolau had a panel to help him through this arbitration. This panel heard both sides of the story and the arbitration was finalized in May 2007.

It’s very important to note that the East pilots stuck with their “Date Of Hire†(DOH) stance all through the arbitration even though Mr. Nicolau stated at least 3 times during the hearings that this would not fly. Incidentally the West pilots went with a “Relative†seniority package that meant a pilot in the 25% percentile in one group would be matched with a pilot in the same percentile from the other group, thus protecting everyones over all seniority.

Mr. Nicolau went with a ratio when his group compiled the seniority list. In fact, he put 517 EAST pilot on the top of the list as the West didn’t have any wide body jets at the time of the merger. That meant that EVERY AWA pilot went backwards in overall seniority. Mr. Nicolau used a ratio formula to compile the rest of the list. When the results were announced the East pilots went ballistic. The East pilots wanted the AWA pilots stapled on the bottom of their list.

Sir, I’m not making this up I will gladly forward the arbitration files to you so you can make sure my sources are accurate. After May 2007 the proverbial “line in the sand†was drawn. It was shortly after the NIC award became public, that the USAPA faction started to make their presence known.

The East pilots tried to say the NIC award was unfair and petitioned the Airline Pilots Association (the pilot union for both sides at the time) to correct this problem. After months of reviewing the NIC award, ALPA, could not find any problems or violations of the established and agreed to policies in the ALPA merger policy and the Transition Agreement. Finally in December 2007, ALPA released the list and presented it to the company. By this time the USAPA movement was well under way.

On April 17th ALPA was kicked off the property by 51% of the vote. There were 5238 eligible voters of which 261 didn’t vote in this election. If there was ever a time were all voters needed to vote, this was one of them. The difference between those that voted for USAPA (2723) and those that voted for ALPA (2254) was 469. That means that 235 votes would have made the difference in keeping ALPA or getting USAPA. Again, it’s important to note there were about 1800 West pilots as opposed to the 3500 East pilots. This means that there were about 500 east pilots that voted to keep ALPA along with the majority of the West pilots that voted to keep ALPA. But, the results are in and USAPA won the election.

Another of the many facts you failed to mention is that from day one, USAPA has always been about putting the seniority list together using Date Of Hire. This method places 90% of the AWA pilots at the BOTTOM of the Airways seniority list. This is definitely not fair to the 1700 AWA pilots and violates several of the policies and conditions of the ALPA merger policy and the Transition Agreement.

USAPA might want to extend their hand to the AWA pilots but they have done nothing to foster goodwill between the groups. In fact, the first letter that most AWA pilots received from USAPA said they were the new bargaining agent and to pay up (dues) or risk being terminated. USAPA failed to send out a welcome aboard here is what we’re going to do for you letter, it was pay up or else.

One of the main reasons why the AWA pilots are not paying dues is again because in the USAPA Constitution and Bylaws it states: “seniority integration will occur by date-of-hire with reasonable conditions and restrictions to preserve each pilot’s un-merged career expectationsâ€.

Therein lies the problem; If an AWA pilot joins USAPA they are agreeing to the conditions set forth in the C&B’s of USAPA as the Constitution states: “Members of the Association shall accept and agree to abide by the Constitution and Bylaws of the USAPA as they are in force or as they may be amended, changed, or modified in accordance with the provisions of this Constitution and Bylawsâ€. The West pilots take this to mean if we join we are agreeing to the DOH proposal in the C&B’s.

The West pilots are adamant about removing the DOH proposal and will not join under these conditions. The bottom line is the seniority issue was decided by the Arbitration and the East pilot refuse to accept that award even though the TA states it was FINAL AND BINDING. So why do we need another seniority agreement?

Randy Mowery said the West pilots are uncertain of USAPA’s intention and that is completely false. USAPA has stated time and time again the NIC award will never see the light of day and there will be a DOH seniority list. In fact, Mr. Mowery states there is a “NEW†seniority list ready to be presented when the new tentative contract is reached. The West pilots are very aware of what USPA plans to do to the AWA pilots. In one of USAPA’s first acts after taking over was to sue 18 AWA pilots for what USAPA calls “hostile actionsâ€. That suit was thrown out and for your information USAPA has refilled in another court and intends to continue with this law suite. As I’m not privy to the inside details of this suite I will leave it at that for now.

Let’s discuss the on going negotiations for a new contract. You failed to mention that is was the EAST pilots that walked out of negotiations in 2007 due in large part because of the NIC award. The East Pilots have stated on the various web boards, as long as there is no contract the NIC award is dead. It’s also important to note that during the summer of 2007 there were NO big oil spikes and the airline industry was predicting a fairly good year. It wasn’t until late fall that oil started its meteoric rise to record levels. It is true that the majority of the East pilots have wages and work rules that are far below the West contract levels. The East could have had significant life style and pay increases had they continued negotiations last year and had not walked out of the process.

Finally, Mr. Reed you stated that USAPA’s most visible achievement was “to spark the controversy over fuel allocationsâ€. You are correct as USAPA got its 15 minutes of fame until the media found out this was nothing more than a labor management dispute. The facts are that NO pilot would EVER take off with less fuel than required by the Federal Air Regulations or that pilot would stand to lose their flight certificates.

Furthermore, as a Captain on the west, I have never been denied additional fuel when I have asked for it. When the West went to the East’s method of fuel planning we now land with almost TWICE the recommended amount required by the FAR’s.

Mr. Reed there is a lot more to this story. You could do several weeks on this merger without ever repeating yourself. I implore and challenge you to print both sides of the story. If you need back ground material I will be more than happy to supply the unaltered documents to you for verification. All you have to do is ask!

 

[EastUS]

We will not disclose exactly when, of where these complaints will be filed, as all former AWA pilots, in addition to USAPA, and certain East pilots will find out soon enough.

While we cannot guarantee success, we would ike to point out that there is every reason in the world to trust our justice system.

We urge all former AWA pilots to keep the proper perspective, as the wheels of justice could turn slowly in this matter.


Leonidas disagrees with the inference that AWAPPA and Leonidas are in a vicious battle.

"We urge all former AWA pilots to keep the proper perspective, as the wheels of justice could turn slowly in this matter." = Hold on to your wallets kids..This'll take YEARS to ever see the light of day in any way at all...If it even ever does.

"While AWAPPA has made it clear that they intend to release funds for this effort, this has yet to take place, and no firm timeline or protocol has been established for the transfer of assets." = Any/All who tossd money into that particular trash can may have a surprise coming. "Leonidas disagrees with the inference that AWAPPA and Leonidas are in a vicious battle." = Sounds good..Now..about that money again???

Therefore, we request that all AWA pilots consider committing at least one-thousand dollars to this cause, .." = Just for starters folks. Don't even begin to kid yourselves otherwise.

"While we cannot guarantee success, we would ike to point out that there is every reason in the world to trust our justice system." Yep = OJay's not guilty being but one tiny grain of sand on that vast beach of trustworthy perfection. "there is every reason in the world to trust our justice system" couldn't ever even be said with a straight face by anyone who's not some shyster-lawyer on the take.

Rotsa' Ruck.............

 

[nostradamus]

leonidas post

A pilots response to ted reed


To: Ted Reed, TheStreet.com Staff Reporter

Mr. Reed, once again you left out the “rest of the storyâ€￾. It sure would be nice if our responses to your articles were printed even if you have to split them up into several articles over the course of a week.

Mr. Reed there is a lot more to this story. You could do several weeks on this merger without ever repeating yourself. I implore and challenge you to print both sides of the story. If you need back ground material I will be more than happy to supply the unaltered documents to you for verification. All you have to do is ask!
[/quote]

Your america west group was told not to talk to Mr. Reed, because you did not like the messengers message.

The now defunct, awa pilots union letter below.


america west pilot union denounces reporter, February 21 Statement below;


""Biased, Inaccurate Reporting by theStreet.com

We are continually amazed by the outwardly biased and inaccurate reporting by Ted Reed who writes for theStreet.com. While Mr. Reed, a former US Airways employee, has chosen to report on the emotional drama created by some East pilots, he has conveniently avoided telling the public the truth. The Nicolau Award resulted from a process that ended with a decision from a mutually-agreed upon arbitrator after extensive testimony and exhibits. As a result of the seniority award, no pilot—East or West—lost their seat, equipment, domicile or pay. On the contrary, the merger has enabled the new US Airways to upgrade more than 400 East first officers to captain positions (versus only 31 new upgrades for West pilots), offered recalls to all furloughed pilots and increased job security for all pilots at the new US Airways. These are the facts, and we have provided them to countless reporters, including Mr. Reed. Unfortunately, Mr. Reed is unable to get past his own personal bias when reporting on this complex, emotional issue. He has done more harm than good by trying to divide the US Airways pilots during such a critical time in our careers.

There are multiple layers to every story, and while the vast majority of reporters understand this and do their best to represent every side in a neutral manner, Mr. Reed has proven time and again that he has no interest in writing an objective story when it involves seniority issues. We sincerely hope that Mr. Reed recognizes the disservice he is providing his readers by presenting an inaccurate, biased portrayal of the issue. Until Mr. Reed chooses to become an impartial reporter, this MEC has decided that we will no longer be a resource to him for his articles. We also ask pilots not to contact him directly to vent their frustrations; in addition to it being against company policy to speak with the media unless you are a union spokesperson, we believe it to be an exercise in futility.""

America West ALPA
Communications Committee Chairman

February 21st article the communications chairman did not like

 

[BottomFeeder]

A pilots response to ted reed


To: Ted Reed, TheStreet.com Staff Reporter

Mr. Reed, once again you left out the “rest of the storyâ€￾. It sure would be nice if our responses to your articles were printed even if you have to split them up into several articles over the course of a week

ALPA was kicked off the property by 51% of the vote. There were 5238 eligible voters of which 261 didn’t vote in this election. If there was ever a time were all voters needed to vote, this was one of them. The difference between those that voted for USAPA (2723) and those that voted for ALPA (2254) was 469. That means that 235 votes would have made the difference in keeping ALPA or getting USAPA./quote]

Leonidas,


AWA Fuzzy Math? By the way it is 50%+1 vote to win and not 51%

ALPA votes 2254 + 235 non voters = 2489
USAPA votes 2723

Which is still short 235 votes to win the election.

Even if all of the 261 votes had been for ALPA it was still short of by a long shot.

Why not tell how ALPA got many of the East votes disqualified?

 

[EastUS]

Why not tell how ALPA got many of the East votes disqualified?

Choke!..Gasp!!!..Say it's not so!! :blink: Oh!..The humanity!!...The "Integrity" 🙄

 

[SegmentKing]

Leonidas,

Why are you being such a cact-ass :mf_boff:

Are you going to disclose to your "members" how long this litigation will last? When will the "west" pilots realize that by the time this comes to court, 50% of them may be laid off, regardless?????

 

[Leonidas]

Leonidas,

Why are you being such a cact-ass :mf_boff:

Are you going to disclose to your "members" how long this litigation will last? When will the "west" pilots realize that by the time this comes to court, 50% of them may be laid off, regardless?????

What litigation? the Nic is gone, you have nothing to worry about.

 

[usabusdriver]

AWA Fuzzy Math? By the way it is 50%+1 vote to win and not 51%

ALPA votes 2254 + 235 non voters = 2489
USAPA votes 2723

Which is still short 235 votes to win the election.

Even if all of the 261 votes had been for ALPA it was still short of by a long shot.

Why not tell how ALPA got many of the East votes disqualified?

Bottom,

I believe that the poster was not referring to the non-voters but rather stating that the winning margin was 469 votes so that if 235 pilots had voted for ALPA instead of USAPA the outcome would have been different.

 

[nostradamus]

August 31, 2008 america west legal rep for pilots filing of lawsuit promise.

''"As we write this, two complaints are being finalized against USAPA. These complaints are the product of earnest research and much consideration by a trio of highly talented, and very experienced attorneys. You will have an opportunity to read the complaints within a matter of days,.....""

It will not be a surprise that a suit is filed by awa pilots, but I am anxiously awaiting to see them file by the deadline they published, within a matter of days. It could happen but ......

tick, tock, tick, tock ......

Nostradamus, September 3, 2008.

 

[Megasnoop]

Quite incorrect. Most of the AWA pilots view McIlvenna as the politician and weasel that he is. Long before usapa AWA would have had an in house union, awapa. The main reason that it did not happen, and it was close, was that McIlvenna was involved in creating the new union and most people did not trust him.

ALPA had no love for him and neither do a majority of AWA pilots. His performance at that meeting surprises no one and defines him pretty well.

Tazz, I don't agree with your prognostications but as I said before, no complaints on your west history. You were there. Reading between the lines in your old posts, did you quit out of frustrations over McIlvenna? How did a weasel get elected MEC Chairman? Usual backstabbing ALPA politics or was McIlvenna a self-made man? for ALPA it must have been the enemy of my enemy is my friend.

On the Leo lawsuit, I dont know what your suing over, but for all our sakes, better to get this done now so we can move on. This is what our union thinks their up to:

Leonidas appears to be soliciting additional funds - $1000 per pilot - in order to finance a lawsuit against USAPA that may be filed in the near future. At this stage, the lawsuit would presumably be based on a supposed obligation of USAPA to implement the Nicolau Award. However, since even AWAPPA's counsel has conceded that the Nicolau Award was merely an internal ALPA mechanism for formulating a bargaining proposal, such a lawsuit would be doomed to failure. USAPA is, of course, entitled to formulate its own proposal. The Leonidas posting prepares the pilots for an adverse result by stating, "we cannot guarantee success."

Not much new there. As I said last week, ALPA didnt present their "bargaining proposal" (AKA NIC) to LCC until 7 months after the award. Now AOL wants to sue USAPA for not presenting the list 4 months after gettting elected?

Also, on the furlough front, USAPA said NO on 5/6-day European pairings over Thanksgiving. The chutzpah of LCC, furloughing pilots, but short of pilots.

WHEREAS Management has requested contractual relief for certain international pairings so as to allow the construction of 5 or 6 day pairings to be built over the Thanksgiving Holiday period, and

WHEREAS any relief granted by the BPR would allow the Company to fly the Thanksgiving schedule with fewer pilots, and

WHEREAS tomorrow, September 4, is the first day of scheduled furloughs, dramatically affecting our pilots and their families, and

WHEREAS, in response to the US Airways pilots’ nearly 3 year old request for pay parity, CEO Parker has stated that pay parity will only come with a new contract,

THEREFORE BE IT RESOLVED that after considering Management’s request to utilize fewer pilots as we initiate furloughs and their request to grant contractual relief outside of a new contract, the Board of Pilot Representatives refuses Management’s request for contractual relief in this matter.

For those who accuse USAPA of not protecting jobs, consider these items:

System Board Member First Officer Dave Ciabattoni briefed the BPR on what is becoming an extremely important grievance concerning our belief that Management is operating more Large RJ’s than our contract allows. This affects all pilots on the property south of seniority number one and in particular, our furloughed pilots.

We believe that Management is in violation of Section VIII C of the Transition Agreement and, accordingly, on August 28th USAPA filed Transition Dispute # 8/Operation of Large Small Jets. This Arbitration is scheduled to be held in December, with results possibly by February.

In addition to investigating the Company's compliance with the limitations on the number of RJs, USAPA is also investigating the Company's compliance with Block Hour minimums.

wins in those 2 disputes could end the furloughs and the downgrades. Ask yourself what would ALPO do? I know they didn't do a thing to stop LCC from mixing east and west flying. snooper

 

[EastUS]

What litigation? the Nic is gone, you have nothing to worry about.

Cue up Eliza Doolittle: The rain in Spain stays mainly on the plain"..."I think she's got it!".."By George she's got it!"

Feel completely free to have lots of very expensive fun with your lawyers though.

 

[Be Careful What You Wish For.]

The quote that described the market out west was best described by Mr Colodny while at that time he was exiting the market, "the airline passengers out west would complain if you allowed them to fly on your airline for free."

He was also credited with saying that "cool northern efficiency" would essentially trump all.
His "Project High Ground" didn't seem to be too effective.