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US Pilot Labor Thread, Aug.31st-Sep. 07

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You are misunderstanding what you are reading. The intent of the claim centers on this premise:


24. The contract underlying the Nicolau Arbitration is neither an agreement
between labor organizations subject to the Labor Management Relations Act, 29 U.S.C.
§§ 185, et seq., nor an agreement between an air carrier and its employees subject to the
Railway Labor Act, 45 U.S.C. §§ 151, et seq.
25. The Nicolau Arbitration was neither subject to federal labor law, nor
conducted by a federal agency or administrative body.

Amusing. So..if I've got this right per the verbage involved:

"24. The contract underlying the Nicolau Arbitration is neither an agreement between labor organizations....nor an agreement between an air carrier and its employees..." Ummm..OK then..what supposed "contract" does it reside within? :blink: 🙄 :lol:

"The Nicolau Arbitration was neither subject to federal labor law, nor conducted by a federal agency or administrative body." So..what's the point here? A dead skunk in the road equally qualifies therein....unless we're talking about a federal road being it's resting place of course :lol: How this supposedly gives said arbitration any worth's a mystery that will need examination. Good luck with that 😉

You're essentially pressing suit to attempt to force a labor union into adopting the wishes of non-members of that union, for a negotiating postion that's prohibited by the union's C&BL's. this ought to prove out as fully hilarious...

Yawn...Just call us when something/anything actually, ever happens....Yawn yet again/etc....
 
This is getting better every day!

Isnt airline labor law governed by thr Railway Labor Act? And aren't union workers covered under such required to settle these type of things with the grievance process BEFORE submitting such claims to federal court? And if you are not a member of the union how can you presuppose that said union failed in its duty to represent you if you didnt even follow the required grievance process?

Yes, if you are fighting the company, the rla doesn't apply on pilot to pilot issues. usapa is allowing the ta to be violated by the company to the harm of west pilots, or do you think that allowing former west pilots to hit the street before new hires is ok?
I suspect that the judge in the Arizona federal court will throw out the suits for being in the wrong venue.
Maybe, maybe not.
Additionally, no matter who the judge is in whatever court may finally decide this the East guys still get to vote on any contract that may or may not contain the Nic. Guess which way the vote will go..........
Well the remedy we are seeking is that the Nic. be implemented immediately for furloughs, and that all future openings (remember the nmb , faa and the company says we are a single company ) be awarded via Nic, so you can vote no all you want.
Do you guys really think Parker did not ask the U S Airways corporate attorneys what the ramifications would be if the west guys did in fact call him on this?

Doug Parker and his legal team have been praying for this lawsuit, remember the seniority issue hasn't even come up in negotiations, we have no idea what the company's position would be, one thing is for sure Doug wants someone else to blame, so if a court rules for the west he can still look like the good guy, plus as you said, usapa will quit negotiating and you get to enjoy loa 93 for the rest of your career, it's a win win for doug.
Just keep handing your money to your attorneys......they have only begun to drain your pockets!
thanks for your concern, below I have a document that is part of the west's case that will give you a little insight into dougs position

JOINT STATEMENT OF LABOR PRINCIPLES
The management teams at both US Airways and America West Airlines recognize the anxiety
and uncertainty created among our valued employees since news of a potential merger surfaced in April,
and we sincerely regret that legal constraints prevented us from providing you with more details about our
discussions. Now that we have announced our planned merger, we can assure you that we have heard
your requests to be kept informed and we will be as open as possible as this transaction progresses.
The leading question is the obvious one: what will happen to my job if America West is ultimately
merged into US Airways? We’ll try to give you our best answer, but please keep in mind that it will take a
long time to complete an operational integration and, as we’ve already seen, there’s always the potential
for unexpected changes in our industry.
Even once we begin the process of integrating our operations, it’s still hard to say what will
happen to anyone’s particular job. For employees in work groups not represented by a collective
bargaining agent at either airline, our management teams will be fair to employees at both carriers. Every
employee is entitled to be evaluated individually, and there is no presumption that employees of one
airline will be favored over the other.
For employees in work groups represented by unions, the question of what will happen to your
jobs is even harder for us to answer because so much of what will happen is outside management’s
control. Our labor contracts contain different provisions governing how seniority lists will be integrated,
and depending on your specific contract, provide for integration in accordance with a particular union’s
merger policy or certain “Allegheny Mohawk†seniority integration provisions. We will honor those
contractual commitments, and the ultimate outcome of seniority integration will be determined by your
collective bargaining representatives as dictated by your contracts.
Although the seniority integration process will be handled by your union representatives, we have
every expectation that our unions will honor certain obviously fair and equitable protocols as they
implement their merger policies or Allegheny Mohawk provisions. Specifically, we would expect that no
employee who already had been furloughed prior to the merger would be permitted to bump an active
employee out of a job. Likewise, we expect our unions will recognize a solution that simply “staples†all
employees of one airline to the bottom of the other’s seniority list as unacceptable and unconscionable.
To that end, because of seniority differences in some groups, straight seniority integration could have an
effect similar to that of stapling employees to the bottom of a seniority list, an outcome that is inconsistent
with a fair and equitable protocol. Therefore, some type of proportional integration would seem
reasonable.
Given our experience working with your union representatives, we do not anticipate they
would advocate an integrated seniority list that violates the basic tenets of fairness and equity, and we
encourage them to help ease any uncertainty among their members as soon as possible by confirming
their intention to work toward seniority integration using these basic principles.
Lastly, although it is extremely important to go through the proper process of integrating seniority
lists, dragging seniority integration out for an unnecessarily long period of time is not in anyone’s best
interest. It is distracting to employees, and to customers who contemplate flying with the new US
Airways. A thoughtful, deliberate but timely resolution will help everyone move forward with greater
certainty, even if expectations are not always met.
We will provide updates about the proposed merger as soon as we can, while continuing to be
honest about what we can’t predict. We truly believe this proposed merger is in the best interests of
employees at both airlines, and we will work hard to provide you with information as we move towards a
combined airline that has a great future ahead.
Sincerely,
Doug Parker Bruce R. Lakefield
 
Doug Parker and his legal team have been praying for this lawsuit, remember the seniority issue hasn't even come up in negotiations, we have no idea what the company's position would be, one thing is for sure Doug wants someone else to blame, so if a court rules for the west he can still look like the good guy, plus as you said, usapa will quit negotiating and you get to enjoy loa 93 for the rest of your career, it's a win win for doug.

I don't imagine the man to be nearly so great a fool as you assign him to be here. He'll do what he thinks best for his own interests, and those of the company. Nic's nowhere to be found in either of those. I rather suspect that appeasing a dwindling minority of malcontents isn't registering so hugely on his radar as you clearly wish to imagine. Great fantasy though......Yawn.. 😉
 
I don't imagine the man to be nearly so great a fool as you imagine here. He'll do what he thinks best for his own interests, and those of the company. Nic's nowhere to be found in either of those. I rather suspect that appeasing a dwindling minority of malcontents isn't registering so hugely on his radar as you clearly wish to imagine. Great fantasy though......Yawn.. 😉
So you are saying, that Doug would rather make the decision himself alienating one side or the other, rather than let a third party decide so that he has no blame?
 
"Additionally, no matter who the judge is in whatever court may finally decide this the East guys still get to vote on any contract that may or may not contain the Nic. Guess which way the vote will go.........."

More excellent evidence for a DFR....keeping it comming guys, you make our case everyday!
 
So you are saying, that Doug would rather make the decision himself alienating one side or the other, rather than let a third party decide so that he has no blame?

Not at all. I'm reasonably positing that he's not at all sufficiently insane as to seek any embracing of Nic, and that your imaginary notions of what's thought of in that area are just that = imaginary. Quite frankly? ..I fully believe that he couldn't possibly care less about your desires therein, and understands the difficulties that nic would produce.

In any case..this but stuff for snores, unless and until some court ever says otherwise..and I really wouldn't hold my breath on that, were I you. Enjoy the feeling of "Hah!..We're really doin' sumpthin' Now!" while you may.
 
thanks for your concern, below I have a document that is part of the west's case that will give you a little insight into dougs position

Although the seniority integration process will be handled by your union representatives, we have
every expectation that our unions will honor certain obviously fair and equitable protocols as they
implement their merger policies or Allegheny Mohawk provisions.


I note that you didn't find that worthy of emphasizing..so let's hit it yet again = "Although the seniority integration process will be handled by your union representatives," 🙄 Hmmm...that "or Allegheny Mohawk provisions." must have been a typo as well. Yessir!..The west has an airtight case all right, even within your own proffered BS offered in supposed "support"...

Have fun 😉
 
EastUs,

Since being diagnosed with US Airways cancer we America West pilots did everything we were supposed to do to make this merger happen on the pilot front. We are fighting for our rights as we see fit, so you don't need to kick our cage everytime we try to right the wrong of the tyranny of the majority! Stop telling us what you think parker will do with the nic list...do you think he is affraid of your workgroup? Why do you enjoy throwing daggers at us every chance you get, we are not going away because you and your fellow posters enjoy their armchair attorney analysis.


Why don't you call your BPR and tell them to get you a contract and get this DOH thing put in so we don't have to talk about it anymore....let us know what they tell you...untill then YAWN and strecth and yawn take your fiber and so on!
 
OK East, we can play "Splice that quote"... How about this one:



"Therefore, some type of proportional integration would seem
reasonable."


Where do you think that statement came from???


The lawsuits will finally enable the transition agreement to be examined and validated by a court. It no longer matters what Doug says, or Prater, or Bradford or EastUS. For the first time in three years we can finally see some progress being made with the integration and the west will know whether they were right or wrong in short order. Because this issue is very black and white: what does the transition agreement say, is it a construct of fair and equitable practices and were there any inequities or errors in the execution of it, it would be a legal first to have the courts rule against the west's interpretation that the TA was fairly administered and executed.
Most likely the courts will find no reasons to disregard any component of the transition agreement- the procedures are spelled out pretty clearly with little ambiguity. Eastisleast is definitely correct in that any court ruling gives Parker an easy excuse to move forward with negotiations. If you guys wish to stall again, well that opens up a new opportunity to take the contract to a judge, possibly and most likely to the detriment of the pilot group. Of course, this wouldn't be the first time you have shot your own foot off, only this time we on the west will feel the effects of it.
Bottom line: the end is near for the USAPA hypotheticals. The west anxiously awaits to hear Bradford's argument:

Scraggly haired FO: "Judge, that contract isn't binding, we didn't sign it!"
"Yes you did, right here"
Scraggly haired FO: "Yeah but that was ALPA"
"ALPA was your legal representative"
Scraggly haired FO: "Yeah but we are USAPA now!"
"And you inherit all contracts/ benefits and obligations from the predecessor"
Scraggly haired FO: "Uh, but the Nicolau is unfair"
"Whether you believe Nicolau to be unfair is not at issue here. The seniority integration occurred exactly how the transition agreement spelled it out. If you think it was unfair or unjust you have to talk to the NMB. We are examining today the validity of the contract you are a party of"

Let the questioning out east begin...
 
Okay, fair enough. I can see how it may have come across that way. But in all honesty I was genuinely surprised that there was no comment! You folks out east have your little snitches and you usually are on this crap like white on rice... Not looking for a fight friend. Just surprised...


No one on the East wishes anyone to be furloughed, everyone knows we seen and survived enough bad events in this indusrty. I understand that you are between a rock and hard place and all of us would fight like you to provide for our family.

I know it might come as a surprise but snitch or not. This lawsuit is just like a tropical storm out in the Atlantic and it wont be ahurrican for many years. So why worry? We have issues that can be addressed right now and those are the one that will be worked on. Such as paid medical coverage for furloughed guys and their families. EVLA's and other means of preventing furloughs. Scope fight to prevent the flying going to outsourced carriers.
 
OK East, we can play "Splice that quote"... How about this one:


The lawsuits will finally enable the transition agreement to be examined and validated by a court. Let the questioning out east begin...


Examine yes ... Validate No


Question, did you pay your USAPA dues/ Agency fees? Remember nonpayment firings will be random and not by one's senority on their list...
 
"Even if it was legitimate,"??? I can show you the post if desired..and that wasn't the most ridiculously self-obsessed and hateful one by light years. What can I say? Said poster's very "name" was/is none other than Leonidas...Honestly..What's that actually tell the east people? Add that to your assininely titled "ARMY" of Leonidas"..."All Out Warfare"/etc, ad nauseum, and what's the flavoring we're really supposed to get out here? Frankly; I'd be embarassed by this Leonidas character myself, so I don't blame you for tiring of the quote...but..I surely didn't make it up, nor ever could make up such self-obsessed, utter BS. That sort of crap's come from the west side like an avalanche though....from the very first "Booyooshaka!" to the "Ho Ho Ho!, St Nic is coming to town!" type of utterly adolescent BS....Throw in a few zillion versions of "and we hate you guys"..and of course.the noble "courtesy" extended to east jumpseaters.....Well...You tell me, honestly..what impression are we all supposed to have out here?.

As for any assertion that "No one on the west thinks that way"..I can only ask you to be serious here. With the exception of a few folks I've had the pleasure of actually meeting, and even some on these often, rather acidic boards as well...little evidence supports any such claim sir. I certainly wish it were otherwise.

Understood on the Shirley 😉 It never hurts to keep a functioning sense of humour throughout all this mess sir :lol: life's simply too short to take many things too deadly seriously. 😉

East, I know he said it but if you read my post I indicated that he may have been taken out of context. Once again, it is the rant of ONE individual. Show me any other west pilot with that attitude. Calm down, you'll blow a blood vessel.
 
Or maybe they meant to ask the judge to order USAPA to adopt the NIC as their negotiating position.. in spite of the common knowledge that "West Pilots" refuse to join the union and wouldn't have a vote on a contract that would implement NIC, even if USAPA were to secure such a contract proposal. :lol:

Newsflash, genius, over 600 west pilots are members of the great experiment.
 
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