US Pilots Labor Thread 2/9-2/16

[NiceLandingCaptain]

Hey east,

I am having fun, TYVM.

Meanwhile, let me just axe you something about reputation. Please tell us who is here discussing the issues. And then please tell us who is here getting him/herself shown to the cornfield time and time again?

You have no proof of my past. You are just pissin in the wind.

And if I keep post-punching with you, I'd be merely joining you in the realm of insanity. So, I'm done. You're back on ignore.

 

[EastUS]

Please tell us who is here discussing the issues. And then please tell us who is here getting him/herself shown to the cornfield time and time again?

You have no proof of my past. You are just pissin in the wind.

And if I keep post-punching with you, I'd be merely joining you in the realm of insanity. So, I'm done. You're back on ignore.

Not even a marginally adequate job of acceptable squirming....Kinda' surprising from a tested "combat veteran", but no matter.....

"Please tell us who is here discussing the issues." OK..I'm confused now; I'd thought a hearty portion of "the issues" for you herein was "INTEGRITY MATTERS"...and even being some kind of "righteous" glacier?....Perhaps I was mistaken?

Oh well..no sense going down this road any more miles, as I'm honestly not trying to add yet more fuel to the west vs east fires, and I've no ready answers for the current debacles, save that time and courtrooms will have to tell the tale. There seems no real sense in tearing each other up in the meanwhile (by which I mean the east-west group's..not you "NiceLanding" ) and I'm the most pathetic possible excuse for any diplomat, thusly; not likely to be of any help in even conversationally "resolving" any of the germane disputes here.

Have a fine day All.

 

[nic4us]

Umm..and this degree of "fair and equitable", utterly absurd obscenity actually "makes sense" to you out west? :blink: What a complete surprise that the two sides don't get along

East, It is not Clear's 11 years that make him senior to his east counterpart with 21 years, it was his seniority within his company, and yes that makes sense to the West and the arbitrator and arbitrators of many other seniority mergers, but we have already hashed this to pieces.

I would like to address you regarding NiceLandingCaptain. I have gathered from your post that you have a great admiration for combat veterans. I do not know NLC, or wether or not he flew in SE Asia. What I do know is that we had many of these veterans at AWA. Most have retired but I am not certain all moved on. Further, AWA had instructors in the training department who easily could fit into your criteria for who, what,where,when NLC would have had to have been to do what he said he did.

So the morale to the story is, if you do indeed hold these people in high regard, you may want to drop it. Less you run the risk (small as you believe it to be), of insulting the individuals you mean to respect.

 

[EastUS]

East, It is not Clear's 11 years that make him senior to his east counterpart with 21 years, it was his seniority within his company, and yes that makes sense to the West and the arbitrator and arbitrators of many other seniority mergers, but we have already hashed this to pieces.

So the morale to the story is, if you do indeed hold these people in high regard, you may want to drop it. Less you run the risk (small as you believe it to be), of insulting the individuals you mean to respect.

!) I must agree that your/my positions are, and will remain opposites on that issue. So it is, and we'll not resolve anything by pointlessly locking horns in any online chat. I don't dismiss the value of continued interaction betwwen pilots of either side in doing that though. At least some degree of mutual humanity can be seen on and from both sides as a result...not neccessarily always the better parts thereof on either side though I've just no longer the patience for it, and pretty much figure it'll have to work it's way through the legal system. Hopefully, in some far away future; the two groups can eventually put this all behind and move forward.

2) Anyone who's had the questionable "privelege" of ever being under enemy fire does have some slight "attitude" towards any who'd falsely claim such. I'll go no further down the road with your 'INTEGRITY" ridden, "righteous glacier", other than to note I've absolutely NO fears of ANY improper "accusations" there. I'd suggest your visiting the archives, and enough said there. I have the fullest respect for any/all of the AWA people who've earned that respect through their Service.

Back to life's dealings for the day. Again, Have a good one.

 

[Phoenix]

East, It is not Clear's 11 years that make him senior to his east counterpart with 21 years, it was his seniority within his company, ...

Within his company... yep, there is your problem. Everyone sees what they had at their own company and refuse to acknowledge what the other side had (accept secretly to hope to capitalize on it).

The realities affecting seniority in each company were not the same. To cherry pick the best realities of the West and then to demand the best realities on the East is to score for yourself a newly packaged seniority that just won't do.

The reality is that the debate will never be finished until every single pilot has flown West, so to speak.

Carry on.

 

[nostradamus]

US Airways reports loss after Las Vegas cutbacks

 

[cleardirect]

How can we take you seriously when you deliberately distort? Unless Mitch has already capitulated, he IS one of the 17. Read below. Im not sure if board rules allow me to mention names, so like PiBrat, Ill edit them out, except for Vasin, since that the point of my reply to you.

US AIRLINE PILOTS ASSOCIATION,
Plaintiff,
v.
AWAPPA LLC, JOHN XXXXXXXXXX, MITCH VASIN, XXXXX XXXXXXX, XXXX XXXXXXXX, XXXX XXXXXX, XXXX XXXXX, XXXXX XXXXXXX, XXXXX XXXXXXX, XXXXXXXXX XXXXXXX, XXXX XXXXX, XXXXX XXXXX, XXXXXX XX XXXXXXX, XXXXX X XXXXX, XXX XXXXXXXXX, XXXXX XXXXXXX, XXXXX XXXXX, and JOHN DOES 1-100, Defendants.

Snoop,

Let me try and clear up your confusion. How many names do you see on the complaint? There are 25 names plus 100 John Does. Did you ever even consider why there were 25 names but all of the talk is about 18? The first name is AWAPPA LLC. The next 6 are the BOD of AWAPPA. The BOD had LLC protection and a very good attorney to fight their battle.

Simple math subtract 7 from 25 you get what?

Those are the individuals that have been harmed in the little witch hunt of USAPA’s. So no there has been no distortion on my part at all. You only need to understand the facts as they are, not as you would like them to be. Or as usapa tries to present them. Was this never explained in any of the legal briefings?

The 18 had to go out and find an attorney and write very big checks to fight a $90 million law suit that includes four counts of RICO.

I dont write the rules, my union does. USAPA has reduced requirements for settlement over the past 8 months. For me, joining and agreeing to obey the C&BLs is admission enough. For our BPR, they want an admission of what they did. If all they did was post, then thats all they have to say. While I personally might be more forgiving of the 17, my BPR speaks for me.

Sounds like we may be making some progress here. You are getting closer to not demanding to admit to guilt, because there was nothing to admit to. The big problem is that usapa is insisting that these guys admit to some sort of conspiracy. There was none. They had screen shots of web posts. OK! They posted on a private web board. Not illegal, not a conspiracy, not worth $90 million.

Your BPR speaks for you. I thought that the BPR spoke for the members. Wasn’t usapa designed, intended, built to give voice to the pilots? That the line pilot would be in charge not some national out of touch mother ship? Why are they not listening to you?

I thought you said Mitch wasnt one of the 17. Your not very clear, Clear.

See the explanation of the players.

I thought you said Mitch wasnt one of the 17. So is he, or isnt he named? What did McIlvenna claim was the purpose of AWAPPA? Vasin was vice-chair of AWAPPA. Not too tough to connect the dots.

No Mitch is not one of the 18. Yes it is 18. The one that was released with no agreement is still included. If you are interested in the explanation of what JM said read the judges ruling. I believe that associating with a person is still not a crime. Just because Mitch is VP does not mean that he did anything. So other then being in the same room with JM what did Mitch do that he should admit guilt to? Please check the complaint.

Flame baiting? Your group has a monopoly on that. Like playing the gender discrimination card, saying 30% of the Section 29 letters went to females, when over 40 had been sent out. From the latest USAPA update:

Oh come on Snoop. You know that is not true. The east has set quite a few fires. How many times did we hear about some doll that had nothing to do with anything?

Yes at the time 3 of the ten letters to the west had gone to females. Times change, that 30% is not accurate anymore. For the record. It was established that “aboutâ€￾ 20 letters had been sent at the time this was discussed.

Your way off base on that, Clear. I quit ALPO over LOA 93. Not a single member of our current USAPA leadership had anything to do with LOA 93 or the Nic arbitration. Both were ALPO manipulated and controlled.
https://mitch@west.net

Now I am confused. You say that none of the current leadership had anything to do with LOA 93 that was ALPA. How many of the current domicile reps or national leaders are former ALPA reps or negotiators?

Am I mistaken? Was Randy Mowery not on the AAA ALPA merger committee? The group that brought you Nicolau? Who was on the MC, are they involved with usapa in any leadership role?

That is my point. You complain that ALPA screwed you but you bring back the same people that failed you expecting a different result.

 

[Phoenix]

... The next 6 are the BOD of AWAPPA. The BOD had LCC protection and a very good attorney to fight their battle.

.....

The 18 had to go out and find an attorney and write very big checks to fight ...

Oh I get it! AWAPPA is a synonym for ALPA.

 

[EastUS]

I've an hypothetical exercise for you Clear, should you be so kind as to accept it. Imagine yourself and first officer and myself and FO arriving at the same hotel. "My" FO has 21 years LOS. Let's say that both your FO and myself head towards the desk. In as simple and realistically brief a presentation as you can make possible...do tell us all exactly how you would convince the person with the 21 years why your mere 11 should place you permanently "senior" to him/her? Remember..Nicolau will be nowhere to be found standing around in that lobby. This oughtta' be good ....

 

[nic4us]

I've an hypothetical exercise for you Clear, should you be so kind as to accept it. Imagine yourself and first officer and myself and FO arriving at the same hotel. "My" FO has 21 years LOS. Let's say that both your FO and myself head towards the desk. In as simple and realistically brief a presentation as you can make possible...do tell us all exactly how you would convince the person with the 21 years why your mere 11 should place you permanently "senior" to him/her? Remember..Nicolau will be nowhere to be found standing around in that lobby. This oughtta' be good ....

I know you addressed this to Clear, but this scenario could not happen because Clear is an F/O. If Clear has upgraded that would mean the 21 year F/O would have been in the same upgrade class. Heck, they could have been sim partners.

Now if Clear and I walked into that same hotel, do tell how your F/O and a couple hundred of his furloughed co-workers deserve to be permanently senior to me.

 

[cleardirect]

I've an hypothetical exercise for you Clear, should you be so kind as to accept it. Imagine yourself and first officer and myself and FO arriving at the same hotel. "My" FO has 21 years LOS. Let's say that both your FO and myself head towards the desk. In as simple and realistically brief a presentation as you can make possible...do tell us all exactly how you would convince the person with the 21 years why your mere 11 should place you permanently "senior" to him/her? Remember..Nicolau will be nowhere to be found standing around in that lobby. This oughtta' be good ....

Very good question. You have struck on the heart of the problem that we are having. There is no way that I or anyone is going convince your FO. It is something that your F/O is going to have to accept or not, his/her choice. When we, all of the pilots, turned the discussion of how to do the list over to a third party it was out of our hands.

Somehow you seem to think that me or the west imposed this list on your group. If you or your F/O want to be upset, angry, un-accepting of the seniority integration. Be mad at Nicolau he is responsible for this.

We the west put on our case, you the east presented your case. Each chose an attorney to give us the best advice. Each side chose the people to fill the merger committee. Each side decided a strategy to convince the panel to chose our point of view. A list was built. Legally. The process was followed.

If your F/O would like to understand why the choice was made the way it was. There are 10 days of testimony and over 3000 pages of transcripts. A bit to much to go into here. This may help with the acceptance. Frankly it is not up to me to “convinceâ€￾ your F/O of anything.

The same way that you are not ever going to convince me or the west pilots that DOH and the ridiculous C&R developed by the east. Will protect or are fair for the west. Neither side is going to be convinced. But eventually one side is going to be forced into ACCEPTING a seniority list. If the courts decide that Nicolau really is binding and your F/O can not accept his/her place on that list. Then maybe it is time to move on. If the courts find that usapa can impose a list on the minority. Then we will have to decide if we can accept that. If not then many of us will move on.

You see going over the list now is a waste of time. That argument is over. The list was arbitrated and accepted by the company. Usapa is being sued for DFR. For not accepting the Nicolau list. The judge is going to decide what is and what is not. It is time to move on to that up coming trial. That is where the future is. Unlike an arbitrator a federal judge has some very serious way of forcing acceptance.

There is no training contract, there is no slavery. Accept the terms or move on. If your F/O can’t convince themselves, nothing I can say will.

I hope that you take this as a serious reply to a serious question and not continue to lol as you ended with.

 

[Megasnoop]

Snoop,

Let me try and clear up your confusion.
No Mitch is not one of the 18.

Lawsuit still says otherwise. If somehow Vasin isnt in the suit anymore, just shows how he sucked others in then walked away. True unionist. Clear, you said Vasin wasnt being sued. No matter how many numbers you try to throw out to rehab your misstatement, it doesnt change the fact that Vasin was one of the orginal defendants. Now your saying the RICO has a $90M price tag? Wow! And to think all defendants can buy out under the radar for less than $500 each. One already did. Notice USAPA isnt gloating over that or even mentioning his name. I was a private matter.

Now I am confused. You say that none of the current leadership had anything to do with LOA 93 that was ALPA. How many of the current domicile reps or national leaders are former ALPA reps or negotiators?

Very confused. None were in office on May 2005 or after. 1 current CLT BPR once was an ALPO Rep, dont know if during LOA 93. Point is your premise that the we got the same leadership we had in LOA 93 and this merger is more of your continued line of Bull.

Am I mistaken? Was Randy Mowery not on the AAA ALPA merger committee? The group that brought you Nicolau? Who was on the MC, are they involved with usapa in any leadership role?

Again you are mistaken, Clear. Our last ALPO MC was Kevin Barry, Phil Carey and Bob Kirch. Trust me, none have them have recycled.

That is my point. You complain that ALPA screwed you but you bring back the same people that failed you expecting a different result.

Same "people?" Please name them. The big blank-shooting ALPO guns like Stephen, Snider, the CLT, BOS, DCA, LGA reps, most of them havent even joined USAPA, much less gotten involved.

None of the ALPO Flight-Pay-Loss suck-ups in power since May 2005 have any position in USAPA. This is a whole new crew. Got to run, doing some morning sightseeing over here in Europe. Ah, the joys of international flying.
http://snoop@truth.sn

 

[traderjake]

how you would convince the person with the 21 years why your mere 11 should place you permanently "senior" to him/her? /quote]

Because the day before the merger the 11 year pilot was in the middle of the West seniority list and was the # 1 first officer.

The 21 year pilot was at the bottom of the East list and and the most junior first officer.

Longevity is not seniority. Seniority is your position on a seniority list. That's why it's called a seniority number.

 

[cleardirect]

Lawsuit still says otherwise. If somehow Vasin isnt in the suit anymore, just shows how he sucked others in then walked away. True unionist. Clear, you said Vasin wasnt being sued. No matter how many numbers you try to throw out to rehab your misstatement, it doesnt change the fact that Vasin was one of the orginal defendants. Now your saying the RICO has a $90M price tag? Wow! And to think all defendants can buy out under the radar for less than $500 each. One already did. Notice USAPA isnt gloating over that or even mentioning his name. I was a private matter.

Snoop,

I am trying to make this as clear as possible. Yes Mitch is still involved and named in the suit. I never said that he was not. His name is on the suit. He was named only because he was on the BOD. One more time. The first six are BOD. The next 18 are individuals not covered or protected by AWAPPA. No, he has not taken a deal or bailed out on anyone.

25 defendants. One LLC, 6 BOD, and 18 individuals. 25 total defendants.

I do not know how else to explain this to you.

If you are having trouble understanding this. Look at the usapa litigation site. Look doc 77 June 24. It says MOTION TO DISMISS BY INDIVIDUAL DEFENDANTS There are others not covered by this law firm that is why there are not 18 names on the document. Look at doc 89, 91. Did you ever look or wonder why there were two motions to dismiss or two of everything from the defendants? That is because the BOD was represented by a law firm. The individual defendants had to hire a different law firm on their own.

The one person that was dropped was one of the 18 named individuals. Covered by a law firm different from the BOD.

Yes the total damages claimed by usapa is over $90 million. Did usapa never tell you that?

I could attach the relevant potions but they are in the complaint. Just the first one.

First amended complaint page 40 paragraph 163

COUNT ONE
Violation of Section 1962© of the Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations Act (“RICOâ€￾)
(Against All Defendants)

163. As a result of the defendants’ misconduct, the defendants are jointly and severally liable to USAPA for its losses in an amount to be determined at trial, including its losses resulting from the defendants’ conspiracy to violate the union security provisions of the collective bargaining agreements, which amounts to approximately $298,000 per month.

164. Pursuant to RICO, 18 U.S.C. § 1964©, USAPA is entitled to recover threefold its damages plus costs and attorneys’ fees from the defendants.

25 defendants. One LLC, 6 BOD, and 18 individuals. 25 total defendants. Four charges of RICO, $298,000 per month times triple damages. Plus legal fees and various other penalties. One count at only the damage of $298,000 per month.

For the four counts of RICO
298,000 X 3 damages= $894,000 X 4 charges = $3,576,000 x 25 defendants = $89,400,000

Count seven

25X 298,000 = $7,450,000

Total $96,850,000.
$3.8 million per person.

Now add in any legal fees that usapa thinks that they can collect. Plus any other money that the magnanimous BPR thinks that they can get.

So yes this law suit as filed could be worth well over $96,850,000 million. If taken to the extreme. As it is written that is per month. If usapa decided to get really nasty. Now ask yourself. What is this law suit really about? Is $96 million dollars a reasonable approach to this? Did the BPR never tell you this?

To clear up another misconception. The deal is not $500 each. Some were offered zero cost. It is .05 per minute. As listed in the complaint it would be a total of about $635.00. That is the total for all the defendants. That is from a $96 million law suit to $635.00. Does that even make sense to you?

 

[EastUS]

Very good question. You have struck on the heart of the problem that we are having. There is no way that I or anyone is going convince your FO. It is something that your F/O is going to have to accept or not, his/her choice. When we, all of the pilots, turned the discussion of how to do the list over to a third party it was out of our hands.

Somehow you seem to think that me or the west imposed this list on your group. If you or your F/O want to be upset, angry, un-accepting of the seniority integration. Be mad at Nicolau he is responsible for this.

"Somehow you seem to think that me or the west imposed this list on your group." Is not imposing the glorious Nic on the east the entire purpose of the west's "Righteous Position"?..and any/all of your attempted litigation? Do you honestly expect "a pass" on any moral or intellectual level, while trying to force something like that on others because the Nic's "not your fault"?

"There is no way that I or anyone is going convince your FO." You've got that right, without the slightest doubt. What a truly marvelous working enviornment this place would be should the Nic insanity ever see the light of day. Good luck playing "senior" to people with more than an entire decade of service than yourself if it ever does.

I was "brought up", if you will, to respect any greater level of experience than I have/had myself, and longer service performed by any others. My belief is that honest respect for others who've done more and given more than myself, is part of a fully proper and well-reasoned approach by which to live a decent life. As a result; I find the Nic nonsense to be a combined exercise in immorality and insanity...period. I'd go so far as to say even a spiritual illness. We'll simply never see eye to eye on any aspect of this. The lines are drawn and it'll play out however it will.