US Pilots' Labor Thread 6/24-6/30 Stay On Topic

[Nicstolemyjob]

Let me get this straight. Group II captains are going to forego $2,500 to $4,000 a month and a much improved schedule just so you can achieve separate ops in order to partially fulfill what USAPA set out to do. At first you wanted to overturn the entire Nicolau Arbitration and raid West jobs, but when you're rebuffed by a unanimous jury and a federal judge then you think Plan B of permanent separate ops is viable. In the meantime, all of those Group II captains will be giving up big money for the rest of their career just to help you subvert Nicolau.

Right.

Are we negotiating now?....You're throwing dollar amounts out there as though you are writing the checks.

The difference between a group 2 captain and a group 1 captain easily offsets your example. And those particular EQ slots will go west under the Nic. Why do I have to explain this to you?

Your perception of the causality of USAPA and the easts are conflicting...so I'll just leave it at that.

You're gonna have to do much better in this regard.

 

[AWE_SHUCKS]

A year ago USAPA was the worst thing that could ever have happened to the West. But the remedy changes everything as the idea that propelled USAPA into existence has been obliterated. Staying on the sidelines for a West pilot makes little sense at this point. One lingering question on the West involves what is owed, ie the Susie arbitration, but that too will be settled any day now. Also, USAPA isn't wasting any time with the Section 29s, so they will get the dues money. Once a West pilot is paid up, he or she might as well stay current and vote.

What about your principles and integrity? If you support USAPA give them money, If you don't support USAPA, don't give them money. In your black and white world those are the only to choices you have. Integrity or a job, a west pilot can't have both..by your rules , not mine.

 

[aquagreen73s]

Those Group I captains are going to be around for a while, same for the Group II thanks to age 65. In the meantime the Group II guys are making 50k less than JBLU and ALK captains. I won't accept for a second that the East captains somehow think they're worth less than the equivalent captain at those two airline. What you offer the Group II captains is another five years or more stuck at that disparity, and what do they get out of it? Satisfaction that the Nic was subverted just to benefit you?

If you want to hold onto that fantasy, have at it. But I predict that enough of the pilot group will see the reality. I'm sure the Trump Shuttle and Empire guys see USAPA for what they are. I can also say for sure than most of the East pilots commuting from the west coast want a change.

You see, the problem for USAPA and their acolytes is that all of their lies are being exposed. USAPA lied to the Trump Shuttle and Empire piots, they lied to the captains by assuring a quick contract because USAPA is breaking the stalemate, and now USAPA is lying about LOA 84. The Kirby by itself would mean $2,500 more for each group II captain, but we also know from Stephan's testimony that the company would have signed Kirby plus 8%. I don't know about you, but that's a fair amount of money. And now two years of those wage increases have been thrown away just to let you and your like to play with your legal fantasy.

Time is not on your side.

 

[AWE_SHUCKS]

Those Group I captains are going to be around for a while, same for the Group II thanks to age 65. In the meantime the Group II guys are making 50k less than JBLU and ALK captains. I won't accept for a second that the East captains somehow think they're worth less than the equivalent captain at those two airline. What you offer the Group II captains is another five years or more stuck at that disparity, and what do they get out of it? Satisfaction that the Nic was subverted just to benefit you?

If you want to hold onto that fantasy, have at it. But I predict that enough of the pilot group will see the reality. I'm sure the Trump Shuttle and Empire guys see USAPA for what they are. I can also say for sure than most of the East pilots commuting from the west coast want a change.

You see, the problem for USAPA and their acolytes is that all of their lies are being exposed. USAPA lied to the Trump Shuttle and Empire piots, they lied to the captains by assuring a quick contract because USAPA is breaking the stalemate, and now USAPA is lying about LOA 84. The Kirby by itself would mean $2,500 more for each group II captain, but we also know from Stephan's testimony that the company would have signed Kirby plus 8%. I don't know about you, but that's a fair amount of money. And now two years of those wage increases have been thrown away just to let you and your like to play with your legal fantasy.

Time is not on your side.

Actually, none of what you say is true. Time is very much on our side. Lots of time.

 

[nic4us]

And any such joint contract with a Nic in section 22 will need extraordinary compensation in other areas to even get a whiff of interest out east since nobody will upgrade in their attrition line under the Nic.

This is something I have addresed before and simply do not understand. The east claim that "nobody will upgrade" or "the West gets all of our attrition".

All else being equal, in any given year, if the company decided they need 100 more captains system wide and we divided them prorated east would get 66 and West 34.

If in that same year east had an attrition rate of 334 (high end) that would mean 400 available seats for east.

In this same year West has an attrition rate of 50 (also high end) that would mean 84 seats.

Total 484 available captain seat, yes?

Now since Nic is slotted, at roughly 2:3, approximately 194 former west would upgrade and 290 former east would do the same.

Okay that was a good year the company added 100, now lets look a a bad year the company wants to take away 100. The attrition would still cause the need for 384 upgrades, 154 former West and 230 former east.

The east is capturing the lion's share of seats that become available, add the smaller West attrition (vs. stand alone) and the reluctance of people to move (especially if they think an opportunity is forthcoming in their own domicile) and the east captures their own attrition at a rate that far outstrips the Nic ratio, and in any event still promotes far more pilots than the West.

In essence, the east lost approximately 25% of its attrition to get this deal done. I fail to see the travesty in that, or how the West "gets it all" or "nobody will upgrade".

 

[hp_fa]

Hey, counselor...which hat are we wearing tonight?

Never mind. Just don't postulate that you are impartial on this board again.

You are not, and haven't been....try as you might.

Me try to convince you of anything?

The bottom line, which you can't or won't see, is that I call them as I see them. Remember when I was actually out front commending Seham for the status quo ante idea? The West folks weren't too thrilled with me at the time. But the problem here is USAPA has given me only that one reason to think they had or have a good idea. So I'm sure you will understand that trying to appear more impartial has been impossible under the current fact patterns. After all, if USAPA, and the AAA MEC before them, had such great ideas don't you think they would have convinced the West pilots, Nicolau, Wye River, Judge Wake (in allowing a DFR to go to trial), a jury or Judge Wake again in preparing an injunction for issue probably early next week? If you can't convince even one of them how do you expect me to be consistently in USAPA's corner? The facts are the facts and USAPA's leadership fails to acknowledge them in order to move on. The real question is why?

 

[EastUS]

Actually, none of what you say is true. Time is very much on our side. Lots of time.

Agreed. I believe the sum total of the "move on" west (MoveOn.West?) nonsense is directly related to their realizing that, and just trying to pretend instead that the addington business is "over", any/all appeals will, with 100% certainty of course, prove utterly futile/etc, and we should all just lay down and play dead now. Doing that will at once, of course, make everything "better" for the east people...in some entirely undefinable way. Oh!...I almost forgot = East failure to instantly lay down and play dead will result in huge personal expenses from imaginary "damages".

Step 2 is to constantly proclaim that LOA93/84 represents a completely futile effort, so why not just sign off on nic yesterday?

When all that's proven out as utterly ineffective propaganda...the next step's to fantasize "an industry leading contract" that's supposedly, almost immediately available (as opposed to laughable)....so..just sign up for nic here

The most recent bit, where the west is going to immediately dominate the union/replace everyone, and change the entire platform and agenda into an AWA Uber Alles one's at least an amusing twist.

 

[Nicstolemyjob]

Me try to convince you of anything?

The bottom line, which you can't or won't see, is that I call them as I see them. Remember when I was actually out front commending Seham for the status quo ante idea? The West folks weren't too thrilled with me at the time. But the problem here is USAPA has given me only that one reason to think they had or have a good idea. So I'm sure you will understand that trying to appear more impartial has been impossible under the current fact patterns. After all, if USAPA, and the AAA MEC before them, had such great ideas don't you think they would have convinced the West pilots, Nicolau, Wye River, Judge Wake (in allowing a DFR to go to trial), a jury or Judge Wake again in preparing an injunction for issue probably early next week? If you can't convince even one of them how do you expect me to be consistently in USAPA's corner? The facts are the facts and USAPA's leadership fails to acknowledge them in order to move on. The real question is why?

No ex-fa...you only think you walk the line you are provided when the truth is, you let your personal spin show with great frequency. And you are entitled to that opinion...but not simultaneous with your claims of impartiality.

Many have noticed it...not just me.

 

[Nicstolemyjob]

This is something I have addresed before and simply do not understand. The east claim that "nobody will upgrade" or "the West gets all of our attrition".

All else being equal, in any given year, if the company decided they need 100 more captains system wide and we divided them prorated east would get 66 and West 34.

If in that same year east had an attrition rate of 334 (high end) that would mean 400 available seats for east.

In this same year West has an attrition rate of 50 (also high end) that would mean 84 seats.

Total 484 available captain seat, yes?

Now since Nic is slotted, at roughly 2:3, approximately 194 former west would upgrade and 290 former east would do the same.

Okay that was a good year the company added 100, now lets look a a bad year the company wants to take away 100. The attrition would still cause the need for 384 upgrades, 154 former West and 230 former east.

The east is capturing the lion's share of seats that become available, add the smaller West attrition (vs. stand alone) and the reluctance of people to move (especially if they think an opportunity is forthcoming in their own domicile) and the east captures their own attrition at a rate that far outstrips the Nic ratio, and in any event still promotes far more pilots than the West.

In essence, the east lost approximately 25% of its attrition to get this deal done. I fail to see the travesty in that, or how the West "gets it all" or "nobody will upgrade".

You speak in broad terms of upgrades...(narrowbodies) which is all you had at AWA.

In the East there are several types and payscales of left seats..(something you don't have at AWA)

It is those "twin-aisle heavies" that will all go to west pilots who had no such equipment in the future.

hope that helps.

 

[hp_fa]

No ex-fa...you only think you walk the line you are provided when the truth is, you let your personal spin show with great frequency. And you are entitled to that opinion...but not simultaneous with your claims of impartiality.

Many have noticed it...not just me.

By that theory, none of the folks who ruled against USAPA (or the AAA MEC) were impartial either.

 

[Nicstolemyjob]

By that theory, none of the folks who ruled against USAPA (or the AAA MEC) were impartial either.

Deflection....another avoidance of the truth.

We were talking about you....at your suggestion.

No further discussion required. You make the point for me.

And it doesn't matter, except your claims of impartiality and your postings are diametrically opposed.

Whatever...you only truly bandstand for your AWA friends...(thats fine) just admit it.

 

[hp_fa]

Whatever...you only truly bandstand for your AWA friends...(thats fine) just admit it.

Sorry, but that is untrue from my perspective. But perhaps that is your truth. Unfortunately, impartiality does not require one to stay that way forever nor does it mean that once someone may no longer be impartial that they cannot revert back. But it does require that some fact(s) change or otherwise become apparent for that to occur.

So, do you have any facts?

 

[Be Careful What You Wish For.]

Savvy?

A quote from some dim witted GWH from a 1950s B rated movie just before he meets his maker.

 

[Nicstolemyjob]

A quote from some dim witted GWH from a 1950s B rated movie just before he meets his maker.

Hmmmm


Try Captain Jack Sparrow...."Pirates of the Carribean"

(my kids just love it)


But...your cryptic reference is noted and given its proper due...
yawn

 

[Be Careful What You Wish For.]

I don't need facts to proclaim you biased...just as you don't require them to BE biased.

Your posts speak for themselves.

Obviously, you don't need facts to remain oblivious to whats happening around you either.