US Pilots' Labor Thread 9/4 to 9/17--STAY ON TOPIC

[HPDriver]

Why didn’t he

Because he was Prater and was worried about the dues he would lose if he lost our property.

The rest is history.

 

[HPDriver]

Wrong. From the restructuring agreement July 2002:

Job Opportunities—
Mid-Atlantic Airways • All MDA positions will be filled first by US Airways pilots,
followed next by pilots from the Participating Wholly-Owned Carriers on the Participating Wholly-Owned Carrier Pilot List as
defined in Attachment B-1 below, followed by new-hire pilots.
A US Airways pilot on the Affected Pilot List who has stated
MDA as a preference may displace into MDA if he is senior to
the most junior MDA pilot.



Additional Bidding
Provisions Notwithstanding any other provisions of the ALPA Restructuring
Agreement, the following additional provisions apply to pilots on
the US Airways pilot seniority list:

• Provision will be made to permit a US Airways pilot who would
otherwise not have been furloughed to bid to an MDA vacancy
in order to eliminate the furlough of a junior pilot who is not
then on furlough. (Subject to resolution of Mainline training
holds/training early/TDY/moving expense issues applicable to
these pilots).

Just pointing out it was possible to go to MDA w/out being furloughed.

You're incorrect.

What you're referring to above is also knows as a "Stand-in-Stead furlough." It was NEVER utilized because:

1. you stopped accruing longevity because you voluntarily FURLOUGHED yourself from mainline in someone else's place.

2. Mainline FO's made more that MDA Captains

If you look, no one senior to Monda was ever at MDA.

But you did have to be furloughed. This was also the same information given by the east MC.

 

[Phoenix]

That's the nutshell. USAPA has really created a problem:

If they lose at the 9th (likely), they've enshrined Nicolau II into case law. If they win, they have to hope they are not bought/sold/fragmented/merged into a larger carrier, because the same stapler can be used against US Airways pilots.

A brilliant scheme. Shame that Bradford can't be found playing either poker or chess for money--lots of poor people could use the cash.

Getting out of bed and driving to work really creates a conundrum for all pilots. Either you get in an accident and enshrine case law for millions of damages against you or you empty your gas tank and suffer the loss of a $40 fill up. But imagine it could be worse! Gas could go up 10 more cents in just one week.

Brought to you by the APLA Ministry of Optimism and Benevolence (MOB).

 

[luvn737s]

Or we could have waited for "project Zanzibar" take place!!!!!

One has to wonder if the naming methodolgy of these so-called "projects" was not alphabetical based on their likelihood of occurring. "Project" Barbell actually came to pass.

Plot Summary for
Road to Zanzibar (1941)
Chuck and his pal Fearless flee a South African carnival when their sideshow causes a fire. After several similar escapades, they've finally saved enough to return to the USA, when Chuck spends it all on a "lost" diamond mine. But that's only the beginning; before long, a pair of attractive con-women have tricked our heroes into financing a comic safari, featuring numerous burlesque jungle adventures...

Maybe Kirby just had a wicked sense of humor..

 

[john john]

Because he was Prater and was worried about the dues he would lose if he lost our property.

The rest is history.

So he sat on the NIC seniority list to kept US ALPA therefore lessening the changes of NIC becoming valid. An end to a means. ALPA/courts/HP/Glass underestimated the grit of USAirway pilots.I admire it

 

[Dorf]

That's bad for the MDA suit since MDA was a separate wholly-owned corporate division of US Group
Jim

Jim,

I think it was originally intended to be a seperate wholly-owned, but that never came into reality because of the certificate. IIRC, wasn't it supposed to use a certificate from the failed attempt by the owner of Black Entertainment TV to form an airline?

Dorf

 

[john john]

Jim,

I think it was originally intended to be a seperate wholly-owned, but that never came into reality because of the certificate. IIRC, wasn't it supposed to use a certificate from the failed attempt by the owner of Black Entertainment TV to form an airline?

Dorf

Potomac Air this certificate was used as a chip for management
http://airlineinfo.com/Sites/DailyAirline/...stpdf26/869.pdf

 

[Metroyet]

So he sat on the NIC seniority list to kept US ALPA therefore lessening the changes of NIC becoming valid. An end to a means. ALPA/courts/HP/Glass underestimated the grit of USAirway pilots.I admire it

IN MY OPINION, (for the mods.) It didn't show "grit" to overpower the minority, it showed mass hysteria and bad judgment to throw out ALPA and go all in on a "make it up as you go along" union.

(Is that better)?

 

[spike99]

IN MY OPINION, (for the mods.) It didn't show "grit" to overpower the minority, it showed mass hysteria and bad judgment to throw out ALPA and go all in on a "make it up as you go along" union.

(Is that better)?

You can say mass hysteria, but the fact the group has been more united than it has ever been in the last 10 years, shows the East group has said enough is enough. The West only sees what they want to see, a company who continued to hire at a record pace, without any real cause other than the government loans, while every other airline in the country was furloughing. Then they want to say those pilots hired, after furloughed East pilots, brought more to the table because they were at a company which was growing. Anyone who has been around this industry for any amount of time knows what the real story is. America West was trying to convince everyone how great they were doing, without any real accomplishments. The collective bargaining agent which brought us to this is no longer in the building for obvious reasons, and to believe the majority of the pilots on this property don't understand this, is a gross error on the West's part. If you do not understand the concept of management manipulating the seniority lists to the maximum extent for their benefit, you must not think we t need a union. ALPA was a perfect example, let the company do whatever they like, as long as we keep the property and keep the dues rolling in.

I'd just as well see everyone at ALPA National end up in prison, as give them another penny of my money ever. All they've ever done (not counting their original inception, which was a benefit to the line pilot) is protect themselves and their cash flow. They have allowed this industry to be destroyed since deregulation, at the behest of numerous management groups. What back step has any National officer or committee member ever taken, particularly in contrast to their union bretheren.

It's now or never, and I'm for now. All of the independent unions need to lead the charge, and force ALPA to change or become irrelevant.

 

[hp_fa]

... without any real cause other than the government loans ...

Spike,

I honestly believe that folks fail to realize that the government ATSB loan was only required because of terrible timing. America West was due to sign a routine commercial financing agreement on 9/12/01. The deal was fully negotiated and agreed to by the parties. However the totally outside events of 9/11 caused the financing to disappear literally overnight.

My point is simple. America West was fully solvent on 9/10/01. But for the events of 9/11, or even a delay of two days in those events, and AWA would not have been requiring an ATSB loan.

 

[Pi brat]

Spike,

I honestly believe that folks fail to realize that the government ATSB loan was only required because of terrible timing. America West was due to sign a routine commercial financing agreement on 9/12/01. The deal was fully negotiated and agreed to by the parties. However the totally outside events of 9/11 caused the financing to disappear literally overnight.

My point is simple. America West was fully solvent on 9/10/01. But for the events of 9/11, or even a delay of two days in those events, and AWA would not have been requiring an ATSB loan.

US was fully solvent on 9/10/01. Do you think 9/11 had anything to do with US's problems, and that maybe without it they wouldn't have furloughed so many, or needed an ATSB loan? I imagine the loss of revenue from the closure of DCA was equal to a large part of AWA's total revenue.

The problem with the idea that US was going to disappear is that it didn't.

 

[Reed Richards]

Spike,

I honestly believe that folks fail to realize that the government ATSB loan was only required because of terrible timing. America West was due to sign a routine commercial financing agreement on 9/12/01. The deal was fully negotiated and agreed to by the parties. However the totally outside events of 9/11 caused the financing to disappear literally overnight.

My point is simple. America West was fully solvent on 9/10/01. But for the events of 9/11, or even a delay of two days in those events, and AWA would not have been requiring an ATSB loan.

HP, your perception is honest, but not singular. I am sure at least the 3000+ families that lost loved ones on 911 thought the same..they were all on brink of something, anything that would have been better than the outcome of that horrible day. I could rant and rave about the expectations of each airline's employees at the exact moment the first aircraft full of terrorist hit the WTC, but (1) each of our perceptions would be different, and (2) this board has forbidden talk of who saved who.

In our case on the East, I was stupidly invested almost full in on my 401k in company stock. That was pretty insane. But at the time, with the UAL merger pending, I remember telling a fellow pilot friend..even if the merger does not go through, this is a strong company, and I will be ok in the long run. 330’s were pouring in, and I really thought the “all ABâ€￾ fleet plan might happen..aligning us with the brilliant single aircraft logic that works so well at WN. I never in my wildest imagination thought about aircraft flying into buildings. I lost just about everything investment wise, but none of my family members so I have no reason to complain. My neighbor two doors up lost her brother in one of the flights....still an emotional time last week at my kid’s school and the yearly ceremony. Like yesterday to her.

Probably one of the most horrible rumors I have ever heard, was that Gangwal (sp?) thought 911 was a "business opportunity" for U to restructure at will. I cannot confirm that, but the employee/management track record at many airlines since that horrible day hints that many in management believed that.

I think we are all lucky to be here, and not because of any particular business savvy or posture prior to 911. A lot it was simple timing or luck. Just look at some of the investment houses that closed shop in the last year..they simply had bad timing..they were no worse off at the time than anyone else..just missed the boat on the bailout. I truly believe neither U or AWA would still be here were it not for the merger/buyout/combo/whatever. I am sorry the merger ever happened, but realize the alternative was worse.

RR

 

[traderjake]

Then they want to say those pilots hired, after furloughed East pilots, brought more to the table because they were at a company which was growing.

They didn't bring a job to the merger so please explain what furloughed East pilots brought to the merger and why that is more valuable than a job.

 

[nic4us]

The problem with the idea that US was going to disappear is that it didn't.

Pi,

In fact it did. US is gone, just as sure as PI is gone, PSA is gone, AWA is gone. The name survived, but not the company. Had the Delta deal materialized the name would be gone also. In that attempted takeover, who was going to do the taking over, and at the end of the day what name was going to be the business name, brand recognition for the company?

 

[nic4us]

You are putting the cart before the horse. In order to be so "supposedly" screwed, you have to BE a member first.

Let me try and recall the chain-- "I will never join USAPA, nor will I pay." " I want to join, but they are denying me membership." "I joined, but they made me a member illegally, so I won't pay." "I joined, indeed, but I am only paying THIS amount," "Oops, I guess I will pay it all." and finally, after all that "Hey, let's show them and all join !" Camera pulls back to barn door, swinging open in the wind.

The fundamental principle of unionism is participation, front and center. Web Boards, videos, blogs, and emails alone don't count.

No the horse is in front of the cart. I was a member, in good standing. My membership was stripped from me by a majority vote in an attempt to strip my seniority.

I am participating. I will participate in every legal means available to me to end the tyrany of the majority. usapa is not a union, it is nothing more than a group of disgruntled malcontents wishing to better their position at others expense.

You lost me on your chain of events because I personally have not made it past "I will never join usapa, nor will I pay". If usapa ever gets around to sending me a section 29 letter, I may not work here much longer, but I will not have contributed to, nor in any way supported, those who do not have the character strength to stand up to their own obligations, wish to better themselves by harming others, and are at the end of the day cowards.