WARN letter finally arrives...

[TWU informer]

I saw this today in Tulsa World:

"American informed management and support employees last week in a similar WARN letter that it will need to reduce their ranks by about 8 percent. The 900 flight attendants who could be laid off are 4.7 percent of the union's membership."

http://www.tulsaworld.com/business/article...E1_hLABOR860902

Puts to rest the assertions that middle management and support won't be taking this right on the chin along with the line employees.

No it doesn't put to rest the assertions at all.

Until the movement and/or reductions are complete, nothing has happened.

Quoting the "Tulsa World" and taking such a firm position on an issue ranks up there with the belief that what is reported in the local working together newsletter called "crib notes" is factual information.

 

[enough already]

The way I understand this, since this is NOT a 5 and 5, if you are age 50-53, after the years' worth of paying for COBRA, you will be without medical insurance until you turn 55. That's when you're eligible for health benefits as a retiree. :blink:

 

[Hopeful]

I saw this today in Tulsa World:

"American informed management and support employees last week in a similar WARN letter that it will need to reduce their ranks by about 8 percent. The 900 flight attendants who could be laid off are 4.7 percent of the union's membership."

http://www.tulsaworld.com/business/article...E1_hLABOR860902

Puts to rest the assertions that middle management and support won't be taking this right on the chin along with the line employees.

You believe everything you read?
Most of us who post here ACTUALLY work for AA and are all too familiar with the "shell game" they is played...Of course some management hit the street, but others are "moved" to other positions within the company....

 

[Watdahail?]

Well they sure posted alot of jobs on aacareers.com today...for the kids with their MBA's fresh out of school to come in and be the "future of AA" while there will be some decent managers probably put out on the street..the ones that actually gave a crap about the employees.

I have a sister in law at HDQ in a lower level position...they were told they'd be taking 8% cut...but that AA had made a 'commitment' to these MBA kids they just hired ( 1 week-2 months seniority) so they would not be subject to RIF. Ain't that a crock!

 

[BigBangTheory]

That is incorrect.

The eligibility criteria for VBR are:

On the other hand, Lauri Curtis' message specifically states that those subject to furlough are not eligible to take OVL or participate in Partnership Flying:

There is a major difference between "not currently on furlough" and "Subject to Furlough."

The effective date of the furlough is August 31, 2008 at 0001. So, if you received a WARN letter you are not eligible for the VBR, OVL or Partnership Flying.

So, yes I was correct.

 

[jimntx]

It will be easy enough to call the 800 number set up for furlough/furlough mitigation questions next week to determine who is/is not eligible for the VBR. However, in reading Laurie's letter on the website, it does not say that you have to be on the payroll on August 31st, it says you have to have 15 years company seniority as of August 31st.

The great majority of the former TWA f/as had at least 15 years company seniority as of April 01, 2001. They were granted company seniority credit for their years with TWA.

The only other restrictions stated were that you couldn't take both the VBR and Article 30, and that the company reserved the right to stipulate the actual separation date of anyone taking the VBR. So, they could stipulate August 31st as the separation date for any former TW f/as taking the VBR.

That being said, since the company intends to limit the number of people taking that option, and since leaves, etc are usually awarded in bidding seniority order--i.e, using the "official" seniority list on the Flight Service website--I have my doubts there will still be VBRs to award when it gets to the former TW f/as.

 

[eolesen]

Well they sure posted alot of jobs on aacareers.com today...for the kids with their MBA's fresh out of school to come in and be the "future of AA" while there will be some decent managers probably put out on the street..the ones that actually gave a crap about the employees.

I have a sister in law at HDQ in a lower level position...they were told they'd be taking 8% cut...but that AA had made a 'commitment' to these MBA kids they just hired ( 1 week-2 months seniority) so they would not be subject to RIF. Ain't that a crock!

No, it's not a crock. It's the difference between the seniority system and individual performance. The same "no-RIF" approach would apply to someone who just transferred departments or took a promotion.

Finding 8% to cut at HDQ has never been difficult. Eliminating unfilled positions alone is probably a good 3-4%. Anyone who got a poor evaluation would be another 1-2% (and no, it's not always the guy who pissed off the boss. There are people who just are incapable of doing the job they're in for one reason or another. Unions protect those people, while management has the option to get rid of them if they don't improve.

Decent managers and analysts almost always survive. They might get shifted into another department, but they won't be put out on the street if there are enough volunteers.

And trust me, there won't' be any shortage of volunteers to take a package. I know a few who have been waiting for the VBR but weren't old enough in 2003.... I know others who've used the past four years to get degrees, etc. and simply want the travel option in return for their years of service.

 

[FA Mikey]

That being said, since the company intends to limit the number of people taking that option, and since leaves, etc are usually awarded in bidding seniority order--i.e, using the "official" seniority list on the Flight Service website--I have my doubts there will still be VBRs to award when it gets to the former TW f/as.

We may be talking with different people. But no one i know down here is interested in the VBR.

 

[BigBangTheory]

It will be easy enough to call the 800 number set up for furlough/furlough mitigation questions next week to determine who is/is not eligible for the VBR. However, in reading Laurie's letter on the website, it does not say that you have to be on the payroll on August 31st, it says you have to have 15 years company seniority as of August 31st.

The great majority of the former TWA f/as had at least 15 years company seniority as of April 01, 2001. They were granted company seniority credit for their years with TWA.

The only other restrictions stated were that you couldn't take both the VBR and Article 30, and that the company reserved the right to stipulate the actual separation date of anyone taking the VBR. So, they could stipulate August 31st as the separation date for any former TW f/as taking the VBR.

That being said, since the company intends to limit the number of people taking that option, and since leaves, etc are usually awarded in bidding seniority order--i.e, using the "official" seniority list on the Flight Service website--I have my doubts there will still be VBRs to award when it gets to the former TW f/as.

I made a call last night to an APFA official. I promised not to say who it is. If you received a WARN letter they said you ARE NOT eligible for the VBR, OVL or Partnership Flying. You must be active and not have received a WARN letter. Call the APFA or Flight Service if you don't believe me.

 

[FA Mikey]

I can understand the leaves, since you might be returning out of seniority, but not be able to take the crappy VBR. Thats an insult.

 

[jimntx]

We may be talking with different people. But no one i know down here is interested in the VBR.

Mike, I'm guessing that it may appeal to people similar to me who came to this glamorous career later in life (but sooner than I). They have the 15 years, they are over 50, but they don't yet qualify for Article 30. They certainly are not the majority of people with that seniority by any means, but there are quite a few scattered around. I know a couple at SLT who are considering taking the VBR.

They can cash in on the VBR then in a few years, take retirement. Article 30, as I understand it, is in lieu of retirement.

 

[jimntx]

I made a call last night to an APFA official. I promised not to say who it is. If you received a WARN letter they said you ARE NOT eligible for the VBR, OVL or Partnership Flying. You must be active and not have received a WARN letter. Call the APFA or Flight Service if you don't believe me.

Did I say I didn't believe you? I simply stated what Laurie's official letter on the official Flight Service website states. If the APFA official is correct, Laurie has opened the company to lawsuits because her letter specifically states that Overage leaves and Partnership flying are not available to those who are subject to furlough. Her letter states no such restriction on the VBR. I was also simply stating that based upon her publicly posted letter, most (if not all) of the former TWA f/as currently active would meet the eligibility requirements.

That's why I intend to call the hotline next week to ask the same question. After all, it will be the company controlling this. And, they have been known to interpret things differently from the union. Yes, it's shocking, I know. But...

 

[BigBangTheory]

Did I say I didn't believe you? I simply stated what Laurie's official letter on the official Flight Service website states. If the APFA official is correct, Laurie has opened the company to lawsuits because her letter specifically states that Overage leaves and Partnership flying are not available to those who are subject to furlough. Her letter states no such restriction on the VBR. I was also simply stating that based upon her publicly posted letter, most (if not all) of the former TWA f/as currently active would meet the eligibility requirements.

That's why I intend to call the hotline next week to ask the same question. After all, it will be the company controlling this. And, they have been known to interpret things differently from the union. Yes, it's shocking, I know. But...

I agree anyone who falls into the age range/years of service range should be able to take the VBR. I think if they age range was 40 and up, they probably would get more takers. I would take it if I was eligible. Being 44, I fall 6 years short. I also know Mikey would take it too. They're trying to clean house at the top and the f/a's who want out are in the 15-20 year range.

 

[jimntx]

BBT, as I live in Dallas I have talked with several DFW f/as who are in your same situation. Have the seniority, but not the age. To a person, they have said that if the age requirement were lowered, they would knock down their own mother to get to the sign-up sheet. I don't know about the other large bases, but I know that my friends in Dallas who are in the 15-25 year range are OVER still having to serve reserve--particularly with no hope of getting off any time soon. With no movement of junior people into DFW the reserve seniority just gets more senior every month.

When I was based at DFW right out of training, I used to (sort of) look forward to reserve months because I got trips on reserve I won't live long enough to hold on a line month. But, sitting here in the crashpad in STL just low enough in relative position that I don't dare even go to a movie, I can fully understand why someone who had been doing it for 15+ years might be just a wee bit sick of it.

 

[Veritas]

I made a call last night to an APFA official. I promised not to say who it is. If you received a WARN letter they said you ARE NOT eligible for the VBR, OVL or Partnership Flying. You must be active and not have received a WARN letter. Call the APFA or Flight Service if you don't believe me.

This is not the first and will not be the last time that someone from APFA got their facts wrong.

I saw a PDF copy of the letter of agreement, dated July 1, 2008, bearing the signatures of both Taylor M. Vaughn, American Airlines Managing Director of Employee Relations, and Laura Glading, President APFA.

The eligibility is: "Any Flight Attendant, not currently on furlough, who is at least 50 years of age, with at least 15 years of Company Seniority as of August 31, 2008"

It clearly says currently, as in July 1, the date that the letter was signed. They are accommodating those who want to participate but who will not have 15 years until the end of August. This is very different than the language used to exclude those who received the WARN notice from participating in Overage Leaves and Partnership Flying.

As Jim wrote above, any former TWA flight attendant who is currently active has way in excess of 15 years toward eligibility in the VBR program. However, since very few of the currently active former TWA flight attendants are younger than 55, this is probably a non issue.