The problem is still too much capacity, regardless of employee compensation . . . . and reducing employees to day-labor status ain''t going to fix the industry. The airline industry is going to continue to deteriorate.
What are the Bankreuptcy odds?
- Thread starter capeman
- Start date
AA will end the day with agreements from all unions in hand. They have will have hedged there bets with a guarantee of DIP financing from a consortium of banks should it become necessary some where, further down the road. They will likely have the lawyers working on, or finishing up a prepackaged BK filing. They will try to avoid the pit falls U and UAL have had in their BK filings.
Unlike the famous U CEO and his admitting there was no plan B should the UAL deal fall through. AA will have a plan "B", "C", and "D", maybe even a plan "E". I just don''t think a bankruptcy filing is imminent.
Unlike the famous U CEO and his admitting there was no plan B should the UAL deal fall through. AA will have a plan "B", "C", and "D", maybe even a plan "E". I just don''t think a bankruptcy filing is imminent.
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On 3/28/2003 3:43:24 PM iflyjetz wrote:
Very salient point.
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No, it''s not a salient point. For every debtor in dire financial straits, there is a creditor who is about to find themselves in dire financial straits. All of the airlines, including AA, have creditors who have a very large stake in them. The creditors will not let their debtors die if they believe that it is possible to restructure the company and get their original loans paid back.On 3/28/2003 3:43:24 PM iflyjetz wrote:
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On 3/28/2003 3:24:00 PM Resman1 wrote:
If you have AA, US, UA all in bankruptcy the financing for DL, NW and CO for their filings will be limited.----------------
On 3/28/2003 3:24:00 PM Resman1 wrote:
If you have AA, US, UA all in bankruptcy the financing for DL, NW and CO for their filings will be limited.----------------
Very salient point.
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On 3/29/2003 3:40:02 PM Connected1 wrote:
No, it''s not a salient point. For every debtor in dire financial straits, there is a creditor who is about to find themselves in dire financial straits. All of the airlines, including AA, have creditors who have a very large stake in them. The creditors will not let their debtors die if they believe that it is possible to restructure the company and get their original loans paid back.
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On 3/29/2003 3:40:02 PM Connected1 wrote:
No, it''s not a salient point. For every debtor in dire financial straits, there is a creditor who is about to find themselves in dire financial straits. All of the airlines, including AA, have creditors who have a very large stake in them. The creditors will not let their debtors die if they believe that it is possible to restructure the company and get their original loans paid back.
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?????
You confirm the point that Resman1 was saying with the second sentence. Think about it a bit longer.
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On 3/29/2003 12:46:55 PM FA Mikey wrote:
AA will end the day with agreements from all unions in hand. They have will have hedged there bets with a guarantee of DIP financing from a consortium of banks should it become necessary some where, further down the road. They will likely have the lawyers working on, or finishing up a prepackaged BK filing. They will try to avoid the pit falls U and UAL have had in their BK filings.
Unlike the famous U CEO and his admitting there was no plan B should the UAL deal fall through. AA will have a plan "B", "C", and "D", maybe even a plan "E". I just don''t think a bankruptcy filing is imminent.
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Your in denial chief..let go,it will all be over soonOn 3/29/2003 12:46:55 PM FA Mikey wrote:
AA will end the day with agreements from all unions in hand. They have will have hedged there bets with a guarantee of DIP financing from a consortium of banks should it become necessary some where, further down the road. They will likely have the lawyers working on, or finishing up a prepackaged BK filing. They will try to avoid the pit falls U and UAL have had in their BK filings.
Unlike the famous U CEO and his admitting there was no plan B should the UAL deal fall through. AA will have a plan "B", "C", and "D", maybe even a plan "E". I just don''t think a bankruptcy filing is imminent.
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The problem with AA is they never had a plan A .
So the B C and D are useless.
avek,
Exactly where do you propose that minimal government intervention, code for market forces, allows the aviation market to restructure?
I) Would you please name the other industries whose movement of goods and services between the US and International destinations is the result of treaty and negotiation on a case by case basis?
II)The slot controlled airports raffled off all the slots and the airlines that obtained those slots are then allowed to convert them to assets during bankruptcy; if the slot allocation from the raffle is per a public policy, surely those slots/assets should revert back to Federal Ownership and not be listed as an asset by the bankrupt carrier. On the other hand, if the Feds were to raffle the slots at those airports off to the highest bidder then they would be "owned" by the carrier that held them.
III) How is it that the Federal Government has the ability to accept or reject the application of individuals to run an airline: would you please list the other "free market" industries that operate in that manner?
IV) In other industries; Finance, Power Generation, Aerospace, Software, Hardware, Liquor, Cigarettes, Automobiles,etc..., international ownership is allowed. In the airline business, the airlines are forbidden from international ownership thus cutting off substantial investment.
V) Why is it that the President of the United States, or the NMB, has the power to control the pace and substance of negotiations between Unions and Management within the air-carrier industry but is not as intrusive or controlling in any other industry except the railroads, electricity, water, sewer and public health/safety; is it because these are accepted Utilities and their workers are compensated accordingly while the Public Policy of the United States Government under both Democrats and Republicans is to allow the churn of airline employees and the subsequent lowering of wages, benefits and working conditions so that Americans can have cheap airfares?
VI) Name the industries where entrance to, operation of, and continued employment within those industries is controlled to the extent that Airline Employees endure.
VII) Name the industries that regulary operate in an enviroment where certain aspects of the operation are classified as WMD, Weapons of Mass Destruction, which are not allowed to freely negotiate or strike or whose employees are not covered within a "civil service" type retirement arrangement.
The airline structure of today is a direct result of US and International Governmental Policy. Other Industries have been allowed to develope and prosper without this degree of Governmental Interference. To the extent that the Individual Airlines have been restricted from developing as International businesses, both the Corporation and the Employees have suffered.
The Airline Deregulation Act of 1978 prevented US AIr Carrier Developement and only succeded in deregulating Employee Wages.
Exactly where do you propose that minimal government intervention, code for market forces, allows the aviation market to restructure?
I) Would you please name the other industries whose movement of goods and services between the US and International destinations is the result of treaty and negotiation on a case by case basis?
II)The slot controlled airports raffled off all the slots and the airlines that obtained those slots are then allowed to convert them to assets during bankruptcy; if the slot allocation from the raffle is per a public policy, surely those slots/assets should revert back to Federal Ownership and not be listed as an asset by the bankrupt carrier. On the other hand, if the Feds were to raffle the slots at those airports off to the highest bidder then they would be "owned" by the carrier that held them.
III) How is it that the Federal Government has the ability to accept or reject the application of individuals to run an airline: would you please list the other "free market" industries that operate in that manner?
IV) In other industries; Finance, Power Generation, Aerospace, Software, Hardware, Liquor, Cigarettes, Automobiles,etc..., international ownership is allowed. In the airline business, the airlines are forbidden from international ownership thus cutting off substantial investment.
V) Why is it that the President of the United States, or the NMB, has the power to control the pace and substance of negotiations between Unions and Management within the air-carrier industry but is not as intrusive or controlling in any other industry except the railroads, electricity, water, sewer and public health/safety; is it because these are accepted Utilities and their workers are compensated accordingly while the Public Policy of the United States Government under both Democrats and Republicans is to allow the churn of airline employees and the subsequent lowering of wages, benefits and working conditions so that Americans can have cheap airfares?
VI) Name the industries where entrance to, operation of, and continued employment within those industries is controlled to the extent that Airline Employees endure.
VII) Name the industries that regulary operate in an enviroment where certain aspects of the operation are classified as WMD, Weapons of Mass Destruction, which are not allowed to freely negotiate or strike or whose employees are not covered within a "civil service" type retirement arrangement.
The airline structure of today is a direct result of US and International Governmental Policy. Other Industries have been allowed to develope and prosper without this degree of Governmental Interference. To the extent that the Individual Airlines have been restricted from developing as International businesses, both the Corporation and the Employees have suffered.
The Airline Deregulation Act of 1978 prevented US AIr Carrier Developement and only succeded in deregulating Employee Wages.
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On 3/29/2003 6:59:19 PM grndproxwarning wrote:
Your in denial chief..let go,it will all be over soon
The problem with AA is they never had a plan A .
So the B C and D are useless.
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AA still doesn''t have a plan.On 3/29/2003 6:59:19 PM grndproxwarning wrote:
Your in denial chief..let go,it will all be over soon
The problem with AA is they never had a plan A .
So the B C and D are useless.
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Carty is touring the system with ZERO details and we are all sunk because of the length of time passed before any attempt was made to survive. And now, we try to survive without a plan.
[sub]----------------
On 3/29/2003 6:59:19 PM grndproxwarning wrote:
Your in denial chief..let go,it will all be over soon
The problem with AA is they never had a plan A .
So the B C and D are useless.
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AA had the plan. There was the A-scale , then the B-scale, the C and D-scales and and the SRP/OSM. The have had the lowest average labor cost in the industry and they are still going to go into bankruptcy.
It sounds as if it is being managed poorly. [/sub]
On 3/29/2003 6:59:19 PM grndproxwarning wrote:
Your in denial chief..let go,it will all be over soon
The problem with AA is they never had a plan A .
So the B C and D are useless.
----------------
AA had the plan. There was the A-scale , then the B-scale, the C and D-scales and and the SRP/OSM. The have had the lowest average labor cost in the industry and they are still going to go into bankruptcy.
It sounds as if it is being managed poorly. [/sub]
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