What's wrong with our pilots

[Interested]

Just recently a couple jets running off the runway, a tail strike on a 737 followed by a tail strike on a 757 and now this http://www.aircrashobserver.com/e107/news.php

 

[jimntx]

If you are referring to the emergency landing in Jamaica, I have to ask how is that an indictment of the pilot? He was getting a warning light regarding an engine. Seems to me that the prudent, wise, and safe thing to do would be to put the plane down on the ground at the earliest opportunity. Which he did. How is a mechanical issue with the plane the pilot's fault?

 

[Interested]

If you are referring to the emergency landing in Jamaica, I have to ask how is that an indictment of the pilot? He was getting a warning light regarding an engine. Seems to me that the prudent, wise, and safe thing to do would be to put the plane down on the ground at the earliest opportunity. Which he did. How is a mechanical issue with the plane the pilot's fault?

Slid off the runway in Canada, over runs the runway in Jackson Hole.

 

[FWAAA]

I thought the OP was talking about the MD-80 that landed off one side of the runway in CLT; tower warned pilots they weren't lined up properly yet they did not go around.

 

[Mach85ER]

And then some knucklehead posts something about an incident 13 months ago in CLT like it happened today.

The Kingston investigation is not complete.
The Jackson Hole investigation is not complete.

 

[jimntx]

When I went to the link, all I could see that addressed American Airlines on the front page of the site was the emergency landing in Jamaica the other day. But, as Mach85ER said, just how far to you have to go back to find something to criticize?
It happened. Now, build a bridge and get over it.

 

[eolesen]

FWIW, Southwest didn't get their cowboy reputation from one incident. They got it from a couple of close calls...

A guy I know who sits on an ALPA safety committee commented on AA's bad luck with landing incidents right after the JAC event. He says AA appears to have more close-calls than any other carrier.

The data below comes from the NTSB's database, and oddly doesn't include the CLT incident.

Since they don't go into cause, I'm not reading anything more into it than just being on the wrong side of a statistical analysis without any other data to confirm there's a problem... The decision to go back to 2004 wasn't mine -- it was to show that WN wasn't perfect, but seems to have realized that the Cowboy reputation probably had some validity......

AA:
N668AA B757-223 Jackson Hole 12/29/2010 exited end of runway
N901AN B737-823 Montreal 11/30/2010 exited side of runway
N977AN B737-823 Kingston 12/22/2009 exited end of runway
N574AA DC-9-82 Denver 3/21/2006 tailstrike
N911TW DC-9-82 Denver 5/28/2005 exited right side of 35R
N234AA DC-9-82 Denver 11/21/2004 Hit approach lights

CO:
N18611 B737-500 Denver 12/20/2008 Snowstorm, off the runway
N17105 B757-224 Newark 10/28/2006 Landed on taxiway

UA:
N448UA A320 Phoenix 10/20/2008 Tailstrike
N442UA A320 Jackson 02/25/2008 Departed runway on landing
N431UA A320 Chicago 10/09/2007 Exited 22R and hit runway lighting

DL/NW:
N185DN B767 Atlanta 10/19/2009 Landed on taxiway
N311US A320 Denver 05/04/2009 Tailstrike on landing
N622DL B757 San Juan 09/05/2006 Tailstrike on landing

WN:
N471WN B737 Midway 12/08/2005 Off 31C in the snow (fatal)
N350SW B737 Seattle 01/30/2005 Landed Taxiway T vs. runway
N368SW B737 Seattle 02/24/2004 Landed Taxiway T vs. runway

AS:
N949AS MD83 Fairbanks 05/18/2006 Wingtip strike

No incidents found for FL, US, B6, HA, G4 or NK.

 

[787nightmare]

FWIW, Southwest didn't get their cowboy reputation from one incident. They got it from a couple of close calls...

A guy I know who sits on an ALPA safety committee commented on AA's bad luck with landing incidents right after the JAC event. He says AA appears to have more close-calls than any other carrier.

The data below comes from the NTSB's database, and oddly doesn't include the CLT incident.

Since they don't go into cause, I'm not reading anything more into it than just being on the wrong side of a statistical analysis without any other data to confirm there's a problem... The decision to go back to 2004 wasn't mine -- it was to show that WN wasn't perfect, but seems to have realized that the Cowboy reputation probably had some validity......

AA:
N668AA B757-223 Jackson Hole 12/29/2010 exited end of runway
N901AN B737-823 Montreal 11/30/2010 exited side of runway
N977AN B737-823 Kingston 12/22/2009 exited end of runway
N574AA DC-9-82 Denver 3/21/2006 tailstrike
N911TW DC-9-82 Denver 5/28/2005 exited right side of 35R
N234AA DC-9-82 Denver 11/21/2004 Hit approach lights

CO:
N18611 B737-500 Denver 12/20/2008 Snowstorm, off the runway
N17105 B757-224 Newark 10/28/2006 Landed on taxiway

UA:
N448UA A320 Phoenix 10/20/2008 Tailstrike
N442UA A320 Jackson 02/25/2008 Departed runway on landing
N431UA A320 Chicago 10/09/2007 Exited 22R and hit runway lighting

DL/NW:
N185DN B767 Atlanta 10/19/2009 Landed on taxiway
N311US A320 Denver 05/04/2009 Tailstrike on landing
N622DL B757 San Juan 09/05/2006 Tailstrike on landing

WN:
N471WN B737 Midway 12/08/2005 Off 31C in the snow (fatal)
N350SW B737 Seattle 01/30/2005 Landed Taxiway T vs. runway
N368SW B737 Seattle 02/24/2004 Landed Taxiway T vs. runway

AS:
N949AS MD83 Fairbanks 05/18/2006 Wingtip strike

No incidents found for FL, US, B6, HA, G4 or NK.

Given WNs numerous short haul routes/cycles and point to point service, I'd say they have a pretty good record...

 

[eolesen]

Given WNs numerous short haul routes/cycles and point to point service, I'd say they have a pretty good record...

On paper, but they were notorious for playing "fast and furious" with regard to taxiing and unstabilized approaches...

 

[PhatSappy]

Just recently a couple jets running off the runway, a tail strike on a 737 followed by a tail strike on a 757 and now this http://www.aircrashobserver.com/e107/news.php

What? Let the investigation run it's course in each case.

Why can't TWU clowns representing Airframe and Powerplant mechanics at a passenger airline manage to show cause for a contract superior to Teamsters at a cargo airline?

 

[Hopeful]

On paper, but they were notorious for playing "fast and furious" with regard to taxiing and unstabilized approaches...

That's what happens when a company gives stock to employees as a large part of compensation. The company's stock price becomes trhe prime driving force and hence a "fast and furious" attitude. Cutting corners to save the company money and make sure that plane leaves on time at any cost becomes the norm.
An executives concern on stock price is different than that of a pilot and mechanic.

The execs cut corners, they get hailed for cutting "costs".
A pilot and mechanic cut corners, the results could be more catastrophic.

 

[eolesen]

Interesting perspective...

 

[FWAAA]

A pilot and mechanic cut corners, the results could be more catastrophic.

So we can't count on pilots or mechanics to do the right thing if they have a financial stake in their airline? I thought both groups were professionals who cared about safety first (their own and their passengers). So I guess that profit sharing is a bad idea as well?

For several years in the late 1990s, AA distributed between $250 million and $350 million a year in employee profit sharing - guess that was a bad idea as it gave an incentive to the pilots and mechanics to cut corners and behave unsafely in hopes of increasing their profit sharing?

Sounds to me like the government should take over fixing and flying commercial airplanes - just like the TSA took over passenger screening. Can't have such safety-sensitive employees working in the private sector, you know.

 

[Hopeful]

So we can't count on pilots or mechanics to do the right thing if they have a financial stake in their airline? I thought both groups were professionals who cared about safety first (their own and their passengers). So I guess that profit sharing is a bad idea as well?

That's a good possibility.. When an employee is driven on $$$$$ based on his/her's airline's DOT rankings in on time performance, sure you might see that "extra" effort to cut corners. Same goes for profit sharing

For several years in the late 1990s, AA distributed between $250 million and $350 million a year in employee profit sharing - guess that was a bad idea as it gave an incentive to the pilots and mechanics to cut corners and behave unsafely in hopes of increasing their profit sharing?

You are speaking to the wrong person about profit sharing and/or stock options. I don't want either one of them. Let the executives at the top cut their own corners in exchange for those choices. Give me a structured raise anytime. This way it is pensionable and increases overtime and holiday pay. I can count on slow and steady compensation increase rather than a risky fast and furious option.

Sounds to me like the government should take over fixing and flying commercial airplanes - just like the TSA took over passenger screening. Can't have such safety-sensitive employees working in the private sector, you know.

In a way, the government has virtual control on flying and fixing aircraft via the FAA. The problem is the FAA has a dual role of enforcing air regulations AND promoting aviation. Not a good mix. FAA sometimes makes callous decisions as not to adversely affect the airlines' bottom line.
I can tell you with a great degree of certainty that SAFETY FIRST is a wink-wink-nudge-nudge reality. First in appearances to the FAA and flying public and lastly in reality to the us in aircraft maintenance. Fortunately most of us do not fold under pressure to "move" and aircraft.

 

[Frank Szabo]

... snip

You are speaking to the wrong person about profit sharing and/or stock options. I don't want either one of them.

... snip

... and I agree.

After the "representation" we pay to "look out for our interests" settled with the company for stock at the effective price to us of about $268 per share (considering our cost over ten years), I would question the value of anything else the TWU "negotiated" for us supposedly "to our benefit".

I also remember the TWU raising hell about these "executive PSP/PUP awards" initially being cash so the decision was made by the execs and board to make the awards in stock instead - evidently, that was what the company's representation (in effect, the TWU) working for them.

I have no idea how AMP would represent its membership should an election be held at American and the TWU sent to the street - I do see, however, what the TWU has done since my employment at American began in 1990. At the very least, they're guilty of extreme stupidity and certainly not worthy of collecting any more dues from the workers at AA.