who gives a sh*t anymore?

[Bob Owens]

 
 
 
Why don't you stop beating up on the Tulsa AMT's. You claim most other carriers have some sort of GEO pay in their contracts. Can you tell us which Airlines pay a GEO adjustment for working in New York or Los Angeles?

Which ones need it as desperately as we do? They all pay much more than AA. 
 
No other carrier, no other Union, no non-union workers at AA start off with only one week of vacation for the first five years. 
 
No other mechanics only get five sick days with the first two days of each occurrence at half pay, even non-union workers at AA do better than that.
 
No other mechanics only get five holidays at only half pay on top of that, even non union workers at AA do better. 
 
While we all suffer from that some of the concessions were disproportionately targeted against the line. 
 
"Not one penny more or its DOA in Tulsa" is what john Hewitt said. 
 
Do you think its unreasonable that since all this was done to save Tulsa that Tulsa should have at the very least supported a GEO pay? Sam did, but Hewitt and Carlisle carried the vote. Don't you feel that since these concessions saved Tulsa  maybe they should have at least balanced out the concessions because the loss of shift premiums and Holiday pay definitely impacted the line more than the base.  Tulsa would get the ten Holidays off, we always had to work them but we got 2.5X, now they just get five holidays off instead of ten, they lost 40 hours of paid time off, we lost 120 hours of pay for Holiday work, we took a much bigger hit. That concession cost Tulsa the equivalent of around $1600/yr, but it cost us $4400/yr. That comes out to an equivalent cut in pay of $2.10 an hour for the line compared to 77 cents for Tulsa. Like I said it disproportionately targeted the line, to save Tulsa. No other workgroup was asked to give such disproportionate sacrifices to save a select group in a certain part of the country. On the line we saw stations closed as well. So a mechanic in BDL had to bump the system and accept concessions to save Tulsa, but nothing was done to save BDL, just as nothing was done to save MCI or AFW. What makes Tulsa so special that everyone else should be willing to sacrifice every and anything for them? Where is the quid pro quo? Why should the line have to pay more to save jobs in Tulsa than Tulsa is paying to save jobs in Tulsa? 

 

[AANOTOK]

Yes Notok you have no problem with geo pay for AA mechs (neither do I). As long as those "greedy" retirees dont get thier hands on any equity. Separate issues but when I read your posts about the retirees equity lawsuit you show the mentality I speak of.

You are correct Zom, 100% correct!

 

[Realityck]

 
So, your saying since they don't have it that we shouldn't have it?
 
With an attitude like that no wonder the TWU does a piss poor job at negotiating a contract.
 
TWU GOTTA GO!  YOU STINK AT YOUR JOB!

 
 
You sound like you just got your AMFA booster shot!    
 
I didn't think any carrier had GEO pay for domestic stations in the last 20 years with the possible exception of Hawaii of Alaska. 

 

[Rogallo]

 
 
You sound like you just got your AMFA booster shot!    
 
I didn't think any carrier had GEO pay for domestic stations in the last 20 years with the possible exception of Hawaii of Alaska. 

 
I did get a booster shot. The same place I'm used to getting it from the TWU!!
 
Can you answer the original question?
Since they don't have GEO we shouldn't have GEO?

 

[scorpion 2]

 
 
 
Why don't you stop beating up on the Tulsa AMT's. You claim most other carriers have some sort of GEO pay in their contracts. Can you tell us which Airlines pay a GEO adjustment for working in New York or Los Angeles?

I'm an AMT from Tulsa and I understand where Bob is coming from. Just because I'm from T town doesnt mean I dont call a spade a spade. This union has been using Tulsa as a tool for over 30 years to sell concessions. The fear tactics used to sell contracts at the Tulsa maintenance base is pathetic and disgusting but if your in the business of collecting union dues for profit or a company wanting to use fear to extract concessions the twu is the best tool in the shed. The international has used hints of an international position or outright given an international position to Tulsa presidents or vice presidents get support on a concessionary deal for years. Its not just the line guys that have battled this crap but the AMT's in Tulsa as well. The problem is that fear is contagious and when mixed with workers that dont have the skill set to leave Tulsa then fellow workers can sway the ones that do have the ability to leave into voting yes on concessions. GEO pay may be a partial answer but what is more important is to stop the crap that has started the spiral to begin with and that is corporate unionism.

 

[iluvaa]

Well it was really Dons puppets on the line, who were all subsequently removed. Todd Woodward tried to use the excuse that he was against it because MIA wasn't getting as much as NY, that argument didn't fly in MIA and they removed him. As part of  the "white spaces farce"  Don told Todd to make the motion because he didn't want it coming from Tulsa.

Bob I've never been against this but what I'm saying is true then right. I hate the TWU and I don't care if anyone helps tulsa even though I live here but I just wanted to make sure the truth was out on that. People can hate Tulsa all they want but there are at least 30% of us that care about our line brothers. And a good percent more that don't even have a clue about what we've done because they are clueless but when educated they care also. Blame the international not the guys in Tulsa because most only know what they are told. We try to educate but is a hard road to hoe. I don't care what happens I've been on the right side of all this since the beginning I will sleep well at night and I don't hold a grudge against anyone who wants to punish the whole as a group.

 

[La Li Lu Le Lo]

Ok, That's one way of looking at it, but the fact is most other carriers have some sort of GEO pay in their contracts, even though most of those contracts are far superior than ours.

Maybe others do but American does not, and it never has.
 

No other industry that I know of pays people in places like Tulsa the same as they pay them in places like LA or NY, it simply doesn't happen. In nearly every other field outside of Commercial Aviation, even the Federal Government and Walmart,  pay is different based on location.

You want to blame the "blanket contract" on Tulsa?
 

The fact is that for many years AA was paying Tulsa above market rates, just as many other carriers did, in order to get contracts passed. Over the years Tulsa became ruled by fear of losing their good deal and started using their majority status to cannibalize the line as much as the company would allow, now the company has nothing else they can go after except Tulsa itself. Should the line defend Tulsa from the terms Tulsa put in place after Tulsa preyed upon the line for many years? 

It sounds like you want revenge at the cost of UNION jobs. Tulsa screwed you (your point of view) and now it is their turn...... is that what your saying, because that is what I am reading? Show me where labor wins in that scenario. Sounds like you are ready to, how did you put it, "cannibalize" Tulsa to satisfy your personal vendetta.
 

Sure I chose to stay, foolish enough to think things would get better, but that's really a management response, not a Union response, no different than, "if you don't like it quit" , or "move to Tulsa", when I realized that things just kept getting worse I started speaking out about it, then ran for office to try and change things, still trying.  Things are changing, just not fast enough. The amount of damage is far outpacing the amount of change. 

But, I am not management Bob. Can you show me where things are changing? Can I have an example? You JUST said that Tulsa was the last thing the company had left to go after (and it sounds like with your blessing), then you asked why you should defend them, this coming from a UNION officer mind you, sounds like more of the same AA/TWU divide and conquer propaganda to me.
 

Some are saying we should be willing to fight to undo what they did, and of course, as usual, expect nothing in return (musn't forget our minority status "now sit down and shut up") . I see as much value in that as they did in addressing our issues. 

Bob don't tell me about being a minority group. I was a Fleet Service Clerk at a maintenance base.  
 

Sure they tell us how reductions in Tulsa will lead to people bumping the line, sure there may be a little of that in the beginning with the most Junior guys, but anyone over 55 with enough years to get a pension and Travel isnt going anywhere, even if they closed Tulsa somebody else would pick up the facility and the same people would be working there, just for a little less money, once their AA pension got added in they would be making the same. 

That sounds exactly like the mentality you accuse Tulsa of. As long as it does not affect people in your "window" then it is OK right?
 

 Without a doubt our association has been detrimental to our careers and our lives and if I was 25 years old and knew what I know now I would not be working for American Airlines.  

I think we established earlier that you had a pretty good idea 20 years ago where the future contracts were heading. 

 

[1AA]

 
 
You sound like you just got your AMFA booster shot!    
 
I didn't think any carrier had GEO pay for domestic stations in the last 20 years with the possible exception of Hawaii of Alaska. 

And no other carrier had the B scale, OSM, 5 paid holidays, 1/2 pay sick pay until the TWU introduced it into the airline industry. So what is your point? Do you know who was the first airline to pay license premium? Care to guess which union represented those AMT's?

 

[MetalMover]

And no other carrier had the B scale, OSM, 5 paid holidays, 1/2 pay sick pay until the TWU introduced it into the airline industry. So what is your point? Do you know who was the first airline to pay license premium? Care to guess which union represented those AMT's?

As Overspeed will tell you that this was all done to save jobs. 

 

[Overspeed]

As Overspeed will tell you that this was all done to save jobs. 

 
The way 2003 concessions were arrived at were for the sake of jobs. I would have been more in favor of keeping the 2001 CBA language and work through delivering more work with fewer people while maintaining higher level pay and benefits. I wasn't at the table but people who were said there were TWU officers wanted "full pay to the last day" and were willing to let the company go BK. I heard that most of the presidents were for it until they saw the membership hit and didn't want to try to sell that type of deal on the floor. It would have been easier to get people to work harder to maintain pay and benefits with the hope that when AA turned around the laid off people would come back at the same pay rate they left with. Instead they still got laid off and then recalled at 17.5% less pay and still asked to work harder.

 

[Bob Owens]

 
The way 2003 concessions were arrived at were for the sake of jobs. 

Ok then explain how losing a week of vacation, a week of sick time and Holidays saves jobs? All those concessions allow the company to eliminate more people. 
 
The 2003 Concessions were about giving AA everything they wanted.  
 
If the objective was to save jobs then you do not agree to productivity improvements, because that eliminates jobs. 
 
The objective was to restore AA's advantage over other carriers that had leveled the playing field by going through Bankruptcy. UAL had been able to cut wages by 14%, then we agreed to 17.5% plus other changes which brought us in excess of 25%. In addition to that we already had an established SRP program of low waged workers that UAL, USAIR, NWA, SWA did not have. The only major carrier that had anything like it was non-union Delta. The AA concessions sent UAL back to square one, then came the outsourcing because there was no way UAL would be able to catch up to AA. (funny how you always cite the closing of Indianapolis which was driven by a reduction in demand due to the massive capacity cuts, much like MCI) They would have had to force 25% of their overhaul to go from $37 an hour to $20/hr, plus impose all the other cuts such as vacation, Holidays, sick time, health care contributions etc. They had no alternative but to take advantage of the surplus that MROs had and outsource. 
 
AA has always enjoyed a total cost advantage over competitors. Even when things were closer we had things such as losing the first year towards our pension, inferior sick time accrual, inferior vacation accrual, longer progressions to top pay, out of pocket LTD, no allowance for work shoes, higher out of pocket for medical coverage and co-pays, deductibles etc. AA and its buddies in the ATD were not going to allow other carriers to reverse that through BK.With the pension the TWU boldly lied and said that our pension was better because we had a higher multiplier, but what they leave out is the loss of the first year mathematically wiped out any benefit of the higher multiplier for around the first 50 years of employment. 
 
By 2003 airlines had drastically cut capacity compared to prior to 9-11. This left thousands of mechanics unemployed. Despite the fact that the unions had helped the carriers get billions in handouts and loans the airlines refused to support legislation to extend unemployment benefits to those they laid off despite getting the funds the Unions helped them get. The Airlines wanted their ex-employees to be desperate for work, work in the MROs. By seizing this opportunity they would be able to get their workers to accept what they would not have accepted otherwise and there were enough mechanics, along with reduced capacity to ensure that it worked. 

 

[Bob Owens]

 
 
I didn't think any carrier had GEO pay for domestic stations in the last 20 years with the possible exception of Hawaii of Alaska. 

You only need GEO when you are willing to negotiate inferior contracts that do not accommodate all your members in the areas where members are employed under the contract. If you are willing to negotiate a deal that is sufficient in NY and LAX then it should be more than adequate in Tulsa or DFW. Geo is not needed then, except maybe in Hawaii, but when you want to roll over and accept a wage that is based on what is needed to survive in Tulsa and you have members in NY and LAX then GEO is needed.
 
I would much rather see Tulsa (and Title II) become willing to fight for a good wage than get GEO for us but with things the way they are GEO is needed. Tulsa used to be willing to fight for something close to whatever UAL got (SFO based), if they still did that then GEO would not be needed. but as long as Tulsa is satisfied as long as they keep work in Tulsa then there has to be some sort of GEO. Unfortunately Tulsa leaders in the past , with a few exceptions that didnt matter in the end, have maintained that whatever is good enough for Tulsa should be good enough for everyone else. the fact that other carriers have had GEO for Hawaii, which certainly never had enough workers to force GEO through, shows how dysfunctional and out of touch with reality  the Tulsa dominated TWU M&R became. 
 
If the leaders of Tulsa had an once of sense then they would realize that GEO is the key to their long term salvation. They could still provide AA the cost advantage by setting OH In house costs lower than UAL will ever be able to achieve in SFO without causing every line mechanic to view the existence of Tulsa as an extreme liability that costs them ten to thirty thousand dollars a year in lost income compared to their peers in the airports they work.  How do they sell it to their members? Simple "Well if you want to make that kind of money then go out and work weekends, holidays, nights, outside in places where it will cost you at least $1,000,000 for a house like you have here". 

 

[Bob Owens]

Bob I've never been against this but what I'm saying is true then right. I hate the TWU and I don't care if anyone helps tulsa even though I live here but I just wanted to make sure the truth was out on that. People can hate Tulsa all they want but there are at least 30% of us that care about our line brothers. And a good percent more that don't even have a clue about what we've done because they are clueless but when educated they care also. Blame the international not the guys in Tulsa because most only know what they are told. We try to educate but is a hard road to hoe. I don't care what happens I've been on the right side of all this since the beginning I will sleep well at night and I don't hold a grudge against anyone who wants to punish the whole as a group.

I apologize for those who get lumped in, but generalizing is the simplest way to lock down where the problem is, the line is by no means pure, we had 4% vote yes in 562, and probably around 15% not vote at all. Had we all voted and all voted NO the deal would have failed, but that's demanding perfection which has never existed. I know a lot of good people in Tulsa, I know there are a lot of good people I don't know in Tulsa . But unfortunately there aren't enough there to sway the majority and every time a leader from Tulsa has stepped up in the past they always end up the same. "Screw the line, screw anybody (AFW-MCI) I'm doing whats best for Tulsa", which would not  be that bad if what they did really was best for Tulsa, it usually screwed all of us. 

 

[Overspeed]

Ok then explain how losing a week of vacation, a week of sick time and Holidays saves jobs? All those concessions allow the company to eliminate more people. 
 
The 2003 Concessions were about giving AA everything they wanted.  
 
If the objective was to save jobs then you do not agree to productivity improvements, because that eliminates jobs. 
 
The objective was to restore AA's advantage over other carriers that had leveled the playing field by going through Bankruptcy. UAL had been able to cut wages by 14%, then we agreed to 17.5% plus other changes which brought us in excess of 25%. In addition to that we already had an established SRP program of low waged workers that UAL, USAIR, NWA, SWA did not have. The only major carrier that had anything like it was non-union Delta. The AA concessions sent UAL back to square one, then came the outsourcing because there was no way UAL would be able to catch up to AA. (funny how you always cite the closing of Indianapolis which was driven by a reduction in demand due to the massive capacity cuts, much like MCI) They would have had to force 25% of their overhaul to go from $37 an hour to $20/hr, plus impose all the other cuts such as vacation, Holidays, sick time, health care contributions etc. They had no alternative but to take advantage of the surplus that MROs had and outsource. 
 
AA has always enjoyed a total cost advantage over competitors. Even when things were closer we had things such as losing the first year towards our pension, inferior sick time accrual, inferior vacation accrual, longer progressions to top pay, out of pocket LTD, no allowance for work shoes, higher out of pocket for medical coverage and co-pays, deductibles etc. AA and its buddies in the ATD were not going to allow other carriers to reverse that through BK.With the pension the TWU boldly lied and said that our pension was better because we had a higher multiplier, but what they leave out is the loss of the first year mathematically wiped out any benefit of the higher multiplier for around the first 50 years of employment. 
 
By 2003 airlines had drastically cut capacity compared to prior to 9-11. This left thousands of mechanics unemployed. Despite the fact that the unions had helped the carriers get billions in handouts and loans the airlines refused to support legislation to extend unemployment benefits to those they laid off despite getting the funds the Unions helped them get. The Airlines wanted their ex-employees to be desperate for work, work in the MROs. By seizing this opportunity they would be able to get their workers to accept what they would not have accepted otherwise and there were enough mechanics, along with reduced capacity to ensure that it worked. 

 
You are sure a good TWU officer advocating for AMFA.

 

[1AA]

 
You are sure a good TWU officer advocating for AMFA.

I agree, it should make a nice smooth transition when we get AMFA on the property.
What are you planning on doing? You are so far up the TWU's backside that there is no light in either direction of the tunnel.