Who wants a merger with US?

[MCI transplant]

<_< ------ Hopeful, like I said in the past, "this is looking more like TWA everyday!"-------- Oh, I'm not saying the IAM will be the answer your looking for, but what you have to do is weigh your options, and,or, alternatives. Ether way your not going to come out of this without a little pain! ------ As for Bob getting back his Teamsters seniority, no chance in hell! I think he's dancing around the issue. But than again, there really isn't an issue out there, "yet", now is there? B)

 

[Dilligas]

i wonder if P would be willing to sweeten the pot (if you will) for the contracts jus to pass in exchange for the support of a merger or take over of AA?

He just did... but only for the current AA employees. Promising current AA pilots 100% furlough protection is incredible. Keeping pilots means keeping more existing flight attendants too. AA Maintenance will still be hit - hard - with continued plans to outsource. They love that outsourcing.

And the current AA employees are the only employees he needs on board - for now. He doesn't need new contracts from US labor, as most likely the current AA unions would win all representation elections to come due to sheer numbers. USAPA is gone, AFA for the FA's is gone, I think the IAM has a very slim chance but most likely the TWU would prevail in any elections for fleet and mechanics unless the backlash from the layoffs and outsourcing dooms them.

IMO he has trumped US labor and holds some winning cards. No need to offer US employees anything. The carrot for them is better pay and some perceived job security if they survive to join the new AA.

As far as current US employees, in his letter he reveals nothing of his plans for current US employees other than hinting at industry standard compensation and benefits. No promises to his current employees but lots of promises to his potential employees. And apparently all of this has been developed with no input from US labor unions. This tells me labor at US has some tough times coming. Those that survive and become part of AA will be probably be higher paid, but some unanticipated until now cuts will likely be coming.

If he can lock down an agreement for a merger, and his chances greatly improved this week, I believe some of the cuts planned for AA will instead come from the US side of the equation. He promised no AA pilot furloughs, so why not draw down US flying to fleet minimums and furlough leading up to the merger. Would any US pilots furloughed have recall rights to a company which ceased to exist because it merged with AA? When pilots get laid off, so do FA's. Current US maintenance is fairly well protected due to current contract outsourcing limits, they already got slammed and cut majorly during the BK processes.

A huge win for most of AA labor compared to the doomed plan from AA management. A huge win for current US upper management, and not so great for lots of US labor... but then again it may be the best chance to preserve their jobs also for the long term.

 

[Hopeful]

He just did... but only for the current AA employees. Promising current AA pilots 100% furlough protection is incredible. Keeping pilots means keeping more existing flight attendants too. AA Maintenance will still be hit - hard - with continued plans to outsource. They love that outsourcing.

Maintenenace is taking the 40% hit while the rest of the workforce is taking 20%. Fleet service too is taking a far greater hit than the standard 20%.

So again I would like to know what LCC intends to do with regards to maintenance. I'm sure the pilots got their promises, the F/A's theirs...
What about M&R????????????

 

[Dilligas]

Maintenenace is taking the 40% hit while the rest of the workforce is taking 20%. Fleet service too is taking a far greater hit than the standard 20%.

So again I would like to know what LCC intends to do with regards to maintenance. I'm sure the pilots got their promises, the F/A's theirs...
What about M&R????????????

This is not what you want to hear, or I want to see happen, but the historical record of shows M&R and fleet are the groups that get slammed hardest with reductions, due to outsourcing.

That being said, he must have promised "something" significant to the TWU to get them to come aboard. However, it will be the worst deal of the three unions so they are not going to come out rah rah rah... they are going to say.... it could have been worse, and it's the best we could get under the circumstances.

Good luck.

 

[FWAAA]

AA's measure does not include Taesl or the work done by AA employees who are not TWU. Counting just Teasl and work already done outside the compamny is looking for the ability for over 50% outsourcing of Maintenence.

Why should TAESL be included in the "outsourced" column? Its employees are TWU-represented AMTs, no? Isn't their contract the same as the other AA AMTs? While we're on it, why are AA employees in other countries (like at LHR) considered as "outsourced" when they're clearly AA employees? Because they're not represented by the worthless union? So they're not in your crappy union. They're still AA employees.

As far as headcount I believe I've made it clear that in BK its nuts to try and hold on to language that nobody else has at the cost of driving down compensation to new lows. The company has three points where they meet the standards for abrogation;
1. The DB pension
2. The Retiree Medical
3. Language keeping the volume of OH in house.
On number three it has never been proven that its a liability, however the truth doesnt matter and its a huge number that provides leverage in favor of abrogation and the judge will abrogate the whole contract as long as its there. I say give them those three things and demand comparable compensation and benefits and watch them scramble to make a case for abrogation. They wont have one, they would have to argue that they need labor to subsidize their mismanagement.

You left out one: the scope cap on regional flying. UA, DL and US all have the ability to fly more RJs (and more large RJs) than AA. Yes, the amount of regional flying affects mechanics, but it really affects the pilots - so it would make sense to delegate that issue to the pilots.

Maintenenace is taking the 40% hit while the rest of the workforce is taking 20%. Fleet service too is taking a far greater hit than the standard 20%.

The job reductions facing the TWU are more than 20% (fleet is 40% headcount loss), but the work still needs to be done - so AA will outsource the work. The dollar savings from the workgroup are still just 20%. Better to keep wages up than sacrifice wages for jobs, right? The alternative would be to keep 100% of the workers and cut everyone's pay another 20%. If given a choice, I'd go for 40% reduction in heads and keep the pay for those who remain.

 

[TWU informer]

Interesting Data

See Attachment Image

Not hard to figure that AMR is by far the worst managed airline in the industry.

You can compare Available Seat Miles to Number of Employees, you can compare Operating Revenue to Number of Employees and the numbers come out the same. AMR has way too many employees and is mis-managed.

I am all for new management.

By the Way, I read this morning that Doug Parker was an Executive at AA under Robert Crandall.
Maybe he learned something the other stooges failed to grasp.

 

[WorldTraveler]

Interesting Data

See Attachment Image

Not hard to figure that AMR is by far the worst managed airline in the industry.

You can compare Available Seat Miles to Number of Employees, you can compare Operating Revenue to Number of Employees and the numbers come out the same. AMR has way too many employees and is mis-managed.

I am all for new management.

By the Way, I read this morning that Doug Parker was an Executive at AA under Robert Crandall.
Maybe he learned something the other stooges failed to grasp.

what is noteworthy in the attached is that if you combine AA and US' current data you come up w/ an airline about the size of DL and UA today - but with 30,000 more employees. Even if you believe Parker that 7000 are going to go bye-bye, no one can believe that AA/US can keep 25,000 more employees and remain viable.

 

[TWU informer]

what is noteworthy in the attached is that if you combine AA and US' current data you come up w/ an airline about the size of DL and UA today - but with 30,000 more employees. Even if you believe Parker that 7000 are going to go bye-bye, no one can believe that AA/US can keep 25,000 more employees and remain viable.

I agree, but I am still willing to give it a chance and see what happens. I know there are large numbers of retirements on the near horizon at AA, not sure about US employee average age though.

I am not personally into the save the headcount idea.
That is exactly what the 2003 idea was based on and failed miserably.

If Government Representatives or Airline management wanted to create or save jobs, they would stop outsourcing of componenet maintenace overseas.

The whole idea of subsidizing jobs with concessions is nothing more than a ruse.

 

[MCI transplant]

<_< ------- And the downward spiral of "Deregulation" continues!!! The degragation of workers earnings, and consolidation of Airlines Industry still has a way to go before it hits bottom! ------- But, the general public has had a free ride for quit some time now, but as the playing field gets smaller, and smaller, that has been changing!!!

 

[MCI transplant]

<_<

 

[777 fixer]

usair already has better vacation, more holidays, iod and sick time. I believe they also still have doubletime and other workrules that are better than we currently have and much much better than what the company is proposing.

If there is a merger who's contract do we get?

 

[wings396]

You are correct MCI. It burns me up when the public starts crying that fares will rise as a result of consolidation Sure they would like fares to stay at the same level they were 30 years ago, and I would like to buy a new car for $5k too.
Our wages have been proping up low fares for years now.

 

[BonTemps]

You are correct MCI. I burns me up when the public starts crying that fares will rise as a result of consolation. Sure they would like fares to stay at the same level they were 30 years ago, and I would like to buy a new car for $5k too.
Our wages have been proping up low fares for years now.

I use that analogy with every single person that complains about airfares. I remember my parents paid around 450.00 R/T to send me to SJU from Houston as a 15 year old for a spanish immersion summer thing. Fares from Texas to SJU are still 450.00 or cheaper...smh..and this was in 1989. The passengers are a big part of the problem with the industry.

 

[Dilligas]

The passengers are a big part of the problem with the industry.

LMAO. Oh yes, those damn passengers. Just think, if they would just go away and disappear we could all non rev every day to a new and exciting destination.

Geez Louise. (face palm) :blink:

 

[Dilligas]

If there is a merger who's contract do we get?

I assume you are asking regarding M&R by your screen name.

During a merger scenario involving two different unions, there is a threshold of percentage of membership which would trigger a representational election. If I recall correctly, the smaller of the two memberships must have at least 35 % compared to the larger group. So if the TWU had more than 65% of the group (which they do today I believe, but most likely will not at time of any merger, due to outsourcing) there would not be an election and and the TWU contract would govern.

However, remember the IAM could start a card drive hoping for discontent from disenfranchised TWU members and if they obtain enough signed cards, they could call for an election ( but this would take some time ).

Now, if the M&R group, and AA fleet take huge hits during BK due to outsourcing (which it kind of looks like they may) their numbers advantage may fall below the 65% threshold and a representational election would be held.

I would expect both unions to attempt to negotiate Transitional Agreements for their respective groups until representational issues can be decided.

The unions could also negotiate who ends up with what areas without an election but I doubt that would happen here as the stakes are very high for both unions... a lot of "dues producers" to be had for someone.

A warning about representational elections... if neither union gets 50% + one vote (if a lot of people choose not to vote -- example -- the TWU gets 47% and the IAM gets 46% and 7% stayed home) you have no union representation, so be sure to vote for someone!

Hope this isn't too confusing, and if I'm inaccurate someone more knowledgeable will surely clear it up.

Good luck.