American Airlines and Labor Negotiations

[NYer]

Why don't you try and take that rhetoric over to the Pilots thread and see how far you get. It's fact that the Pilots did better by voting NO on the first offer, plain and simple.

Here you go, from the bankruptcy court documents as the APA was fighting the abrogation of their CBA.

"APA’s proffered (and inadmissible) evidence shows that American made offers to each of its unions to reduce the 20% labor cost reduction figure sought in litigation to a smaller figure (17%) as an inducement to settle and in return for long term stability, certainty, and labor peace. Everyone but the pilots accepted. APA now claims that it is entitled in litigation to the quid without surrendering the quo — to use the 17% figure as the benchmark figure for a new “necessity” inquiry — a figure inextricably linked in American’s compromise offers to the labor stability and certainty that come from a long-term deal before an exit from Chapter 11 — without agreeing to a thing. Allowing APA to accomplish this feint would punish the other unions for making the sacrifices necessary to get the lowered figure..."

So, in Court, LAA admits all unions with contracts received the 17%, the APA was fighting to get the 17% while the airline continue to hold them to the 20% until, like the other unions, they agreed to a BK CBA.

This submission was in August 2012 and the APA didn't get a contract until December 2012. As a point of reference the TWU contracts had dates of September 12, 2012

Read it yourself, PDF attached.

 

[V.O. Reason]

Lus catering..the writing been on the wall for years. There'll be concessions. The question is. How much of concessions. For fleet such as myself im not betting on much improvement. Esp since i was told by one of our local union rep that for example buyout. Company wld have restrictions n not all cities wld be offered it as theres a few folks who wld jump at that. Furthermore buyout wld not be by seniority. Thats just from our local rep.

But will we actually get a chance to vote this year?,
Did the local guy enlighten you on that?
I mean passing along the information you said he tells says they know more then we have been lead to believe

 

[robbedagain]

But will we actually get a chance to vote this year?,
Did the local guy enlighten you on that?
I mean passing along the information you said he tells says they know more then we have been lead to believe

He did not say as he cld not get an answer.

 

[conehead777]

Dude. We ALL had to cut 17% from our contracts.

The merger, not the pilots, helped the original 20% to become 17% in cuts.

The pilots were not abrogated there second Ofer was better don’t care if you were there are not. That’s the truth. You twu spin zone dose not cut it. They also got snap back . But our twu screwed us and you were apart of it if you were there.

 

[swamt]

Dude. We ALL had to cut 17% from our contracts.

The merger, not the pilots, helped the original 20% to become 17% in cuts.

Again. take that rhetoric over to the Pilots thread and see how far ya get. Read what I posted, NOT what is inside your head.

 

[swamt]

The pilots were not abrogated there second Ofer was better don’t care if you were there are not. That’s the truth. You twu spin zone dose not cut it. They also got snap back . But our twu screwed us and you were apart of it if you were there.

Oh shite. Forgot to mention that snap back clause. Thx for the reminder conehead.
That's right, the TWU never nego the snap back like the Pilots and F/A's did. So sad.

 

[swamt]

Here you go, from the bankruptcy court documents as the APA was fighting the abrogation of their CBA.

"APA’s proffered (and inadmissible) evidence shows that American made offers to each of its unions to reduce the 20% labor cost reduction figure sought in litigation to a smaller figure (17%) as an inducement to settle and in return for long term stability, certainty, and labor peace. Everyone but the pilots accepted. APA now claims that it is entitled in litigation to the quid without surrendering the quo — to use the 17% figure as the benchmark figure for a new “necessity” inquiry — a figure inextricably linked in American’s compromise offers to the labor stability and certainty that come from a long-term deal before an exit from Chapter 11 — without agreeing to a thing. Allowing APA to accomplish this feint would punish the other unions for making the sacrifices necessary to get the lowered figure..."

So, in Court, LAA admits all unions with contracts received the 17%, the APA was fighting to get the 17% while the airline continue to hold them to the 20% until, like the other unions, they agreed to a BK CBA.

This submission was in August 2012 and the APA didn't get a contract until December 2012. As a point of reference the TWU contracts had dates of September 12, 2012

Read it yourself, PDF attached.

It still does NOT change the fact that the Pilots voted down their first offer (with the threat of abrogating their contract) and they did in fact get a much better deal after returning to the table and working it out as instructed or suggested by the judge. PERIOD! End of story...

 

[CremaDiLimone]

It's fascinating to me how "money" to other groups is always portrayed as a victory but we never talk about what they had to give up.

At the same time, when they throw money at us we often look towards what we had to give up to get it.

Fascinating dynamics.

offering them delta's profit sharing formula is a great start...

if envoy pilots can fly the 321neo, yes, maybe it's not worth it.

aa proposed 3% more than delta - no change to profit sharing, haggled for an additional week VC and proposed comparable 401k contributions/match and wanted the scope store in return. that's fleet and mx, not the pilots.

i'd say we have a legit complaint.

 

[CremaDiLimone]

Artificial?

It is a real, very real.

no need for a question mark, i explained what artificial meant.

just like, the government cuts corporate taxes, aa magically has $300 million more in profit.

that profit is artificial. it didn't occur due to a manager with a degree from wharton who cut costs, it occurred artificially...not organically.

the profit is real, but, artificial - just like the court case.

 

[CremaDiLimone]

I see and understand.
When I asked about catering I was going to ask about ramp as well as both were being talked about before being chopped. I did not know that ramp was title 2. So fleet jobs are going away, not like some on here are saying that no fleet concessions huh?
It is just unbelievable how badly they want to spread the misinformation.

title 1 is AMT. title 2 is ramp/auto shop, GSE and facility maintenance. title 3 is fleet.

i believe stores is title 5?

 

[CremaDiLimone]

I think the jetnet proposal was extremely good will, but then the botched slowdown and guess who will pay for it?

i felt and still feel the jetnet proposal was chintzy...epitome of stinginess.

unprecedented profits and a tiny raise, a ridiculous signing 'bonus', a bigger $3k bonus for lus...no movement on profit sharing and the company made me feel guilty about asking for another week VC.

all those crumbs and the company wants the whole cake of scope.

looks as though i can make that up to them by foregoing retro, let's delay more so we can all lose a bigger retro check.

 

[Tim Nelson]

i felt and still feel the jetnet proposal was chintzy...epitome of stinginess.

unprecedented profits and a tiny raise, a ridiculous signing 'bonus', a bigger $3k bonus for lus...no movement on profit sharing and the company made me feel guilty about asking for another week VC.

all those crumbs and the company wants the whole cake of scope.

looks as though i can make that up to them by foregoing retro, let's delay more so we can all lose a bigger retro check.

Retro isnt going to happen. The union can package the bonus and call it retro but this union simply isnt capable of retro. If so, then it will serve me well and i would get alot due to being topped out and overtime. Not Happening!

 

[NYer]

The pilots were not abrogated there second Ofer was better don’t care if you were there are not. That’s the truth. You twu spin zone dose not cut it. They also got snap back . But our twu screwed us and you were apart of it if you were there.

It still does NOT change the fact that the Pilots voted down their first offer (with the threat of abrogating their contract) and they did in fact get a much better deal after returning to the table and working it out as instructed or suggested by the judge. PERIOD! End of story...

It's funny how your guys want certain facts to be as you want them to be. Here's the chain of events.

The TWU, APFA & APA were "asked" for 20% cuts to their agreements.

The TWU and APFA passed new agreements and their 20% became 17%.

The APA didn't pass their agreement. The Judge ordered AMR could abrogate their contract. The APA went to the BK Judge and asked for the 17% everyone else got. AMR said, in Court AFTER the other groups received their adjusted percentage of 17% that the APA would receive the same only when they get a consensual agreement. That didn't happen until December 2012.

They would of received the 17% in June without the abrogation order, just like everyone else.

 

[Rogallo]

That's right, the TWU never nego the snap back like the Pilots and F/A's did. So sad.

Here ya go swamt

 

[V.O. Reason]

It still does NOT change the fact that the Pilots voted down their first offer (with the threat of abrogating their contract) and they did in fact get a much better deal after returning to the table and working it out as instructed or suggested by the judge. PERIOD! End of story...

Pilots have more leverage and clout then any group.
So yeah they can do that.
Fleet and maint don’t have that luxury