DELTA tapped out
- Thread starter luvthe9
- Start date
I'm sure you will agree...it's been a long 6 months or so and sometimes our sense of humor gets lost. No harm at all.
(and that's not a Brokeback wink)
WorldTraveler
Corn Field
- Dec 5, 2003
- 21,709
- 10,721
I'm back from my little lunch time soiree and am satisified. Seeing that ch.12 was still posting, he must not have been who I was "hungry" for. Unless he communicated from his Palm. wink, wink. LOL.
12,
there will be a DL to return to. don't worry. this is high stakes drama but no one is going to screw up to the point of putting 60,000 people out of work and screwing the creditors that are holding DL together.
What you can count on seeing is that DL will become a much more performance oriented culture. THe pilots will not have big salaries built into their base salaries but they might possibly regain high salaries if DL returns to financial leadership in the industry. Hopefully, a performance oriented culture will mean that DALPA should be actively involved in the management of their company instead of sitting around with a gun to management's head demanding higher and higher pay. There will be alot of casualties at DL over the next few months but those employees who stick around will be with an airline that has as good a chance of returning to the top of the industry as any other airline. Remember that there weren't a whole lot of people that didn't give CO much hope at all 15 years ago but they are now a very respectable airline. DL will do what CO did in just one bankruptcy filing and several years instead of the decade and two filings it took CO.
Seeing that ch.12 was still posting, he must not have been who I was "hungry" for. Unless he communicated from his Palm. wink, wink. LOL. 12,
there will be a DL to return to. don't worry. this is high stakes drama but no one is going to screw up to the point of putting 60,000 people out of work and screwing the creditors that are holding DL together.
What you can count on seeing is that DL will become a much more performance oriented culture. THe pilots will not have big salaries built into their base salaries but they might possibly regain high salaries if DL returns to financial leadership in the industry. Hopefully, a performance oriented culture will mean that DALPA should be actively involved in the management of their company instead of sitting around with a gun to management's head demanding higher and higher pay. There will be alot of casualties at DL over the next few months but those employees who stick around will be with an airline that has as good a chance of returning to the top of the industry as any other airline. Remember that there weren't a whole lot of people that didn't give CO much hope at all 15 years ago but they are now a very respectable airline. DL will do what CO did in just one bankruptcy filing and several years instead of the decade and two filings it took CO.
I am sure you wrote about the UAL pilots seat on the BOD and their input into their futures as being a bad thing. Now that the shoe is on the other foot you want the DALPA group to be part of the operation to take an active role in leadership and risk.
I am sure someday you will be on the front page of the enquirer. The guy with 3 mouths and different stories coming out of each.
I gotta disagree with this, NH/BBs.
Mr Owens and others have repeatedly posted that AA's represented employees (at least those represented by the bus drivers' union) took bigger hits than their counterparts at US or UAL, and they're all represented by unions. AA's union failed to protect the TWU members - so exactly what benefit did all those dues provide?
When management is trying not to share increased revenue with the workers, and the pie is growing, perhaps unions actually assist the workers in getting a bigger share of the pie that management doesn't want to share.
But when the pie is shrinking and management is demanding paycuts of represented workers, do the unions really minimize the paycuts? Sure, DALPA's existence prevented DL from unilaterally slashing pilot pay late in 2001 or 2002 or 2003 and even made DL "negotiate" in late 2004, when DALPA pilots gave up a billion a year, which most agree equals paycuts of a third. That's a bigger % pay rate cut than suffered by APA pilots at AA in the 2003 concessions.
IIRC, however, DALPA rates pre-concessions were substantially higher than those at the APA pre-concessions. But that's only because APA rejected AA's pay parity offer because (IIRC) the baseball-style arbitration that AA wanted.
I don't see the evidence that the absence of a union means that the workers take a bigger hit when the management chainsaws come a callin. If non-represented workers really did suffer because they don't have a union, then wouldn't nonrepresented low-to-mid-level managers suffer as well in paycut demands? Conventional wisdom is that management doesn't share in the sacrifice; why not? After all, they're not represented. Shouldn't their lack of representation mean they take even bigger paycuts? All their boss has to do is say "Here's how much less you make tomorrow. Too Bad. If you don't like it, then QUIT."
Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't see how the unions benefit their members at all when a company says "You're gonna take paycuts of X whether you like it or not. And if you reject these cuts, we're gonna file Ch 11 and seek even bigger paycuts, which we'll eventually get even if we have to abbrogate your contract (or threaten to do so)."
Yet everyone keeps ignoring the Elephant in the room. DALPA can just say NO and the cuts will have to come from someone else. If you go to any Delta pilot forum, you will see that this is exactly what the pilots voting are saying will happen. They've given enough and have no plans of voting in a YES. If management decides to force the issue, they'll strike. They believe that management isn't that stupid and will find an alternate source of cuts (ie - non-union)
______________________________________________________
WT, you are the flip flop king. When UAL was in bk, you were all doom and gloom and managed to point out to the good people of United that there was little chance of emerging from bankruptcy given that only a handful of airlines had ever accomplished the task (do you still have the list to post like you did for us?) NOW that your beloved Delta is not only in bk but the least likely to survive, you're all rosy about their future. Has it occured to you that this is why you've lost all credibility on this board? You made it clear that you weren't trying to hurt the employees at United but rather you were pointing out the fact that all of us should start considering that this may well be the end of our aviation careers. Well guess what? The shoe is on the other foot and the most likely to fail airline is DELTA. You can spin as much as you'd like but you can't hide the facts.
To the employees of Delta, it's a rough road ahead. Hang in there and as WT so graciously asked us during our dark days, "you can always start over at the bottom at United, would you be willing to do that?" :down: (Maybe now you'll understand why he has zero respect from us that he threw this garbage at for years)
______________________________________________________
WT, you are the flip flop king. When UAL was in bk, you were all doom and gloom and managed to point out to the good people of United that there was little chance of emerging from bankruptcy given that only a handful of airlines had ever accomplished the task (do you still have the list to post like you did for us?) NOW that your beloved Delta is not only in bk but the least likely to survive, you're all rosy about their future. Has it occured to you that this is why you've lost all credibility on this board? You made it clear that you weren't trying to hurt the employees at United but rather you were pointing out the fact that all of us should start considering that this may well be the end of our aviation careers. Well guess what? The shoe is on the other foot and the most likely to fail airline is DELTA. You can spin as much as you'd like but you can't hide the facts.
To the employees of Delta, it's a rough road ahead. Hang in there and as WT so graciously asked us during our dark days, "you can always start over at the bottom at United, would you be willing to do that?" :down: (Maybe now you'll understand why he has zero respect from us that he threw this garbage at for years)
WorldTraveler
Corn Field
- Dec 5, 2003
- 21,709
- 10,721
magsau and deleted,
Yes, I posted vociferously that UA was a colossal failure of employee ownership ten times worse than at DL because UA had set up just about everything that should have made the employees truly involved in management of the company. The outcome? Years of infighting between labor and management that culminated in labor's demands that they get REPAID for their investment in the company (a completely lack of understanding of what they had been through). So what happened, UA caved and gave the pilots what they wanted, UA couldn't sustain the costs, and ended up in bankruptcy. Not unlike the story at DL.
Unlike DL, though, UA has not done what needs to be done and doesn't understand what they have to do to turn things around. There is absolutely no inconsistency in my postings regarding that. UA has succeeded at exiting bankruptcy but it is far from certain that they will remain a viable airline without another trip through bankruptcy or an acquisition that would allow UA to finish the work they should have done in bankruptcy.
The only flip flop that has occurred is the cerebral fluid sloshing back and forth in the heads of those who have been beat around by management at UA and now DL because they refused to believe that cuts were needed and that they would come.
Newsflash: DL will not be getting cuts from anywhere else. They are coming from the pilots and the pilots will give. PERIOD.
To fail to believe that this is reality is to fail to understand the fundamental law of labor relations:
Employees are paid by their employer, not a labor union. Employers will not continue to pay their employees more than the employer desires to pay for the long term.
It is true that labor unions helped push back DALPA's contribution in 2002 but all that really happened is that the needed contribution got larger and larger and larger. Telling a bill collector to go away never works. And FWAAA is absolutely correct that it will not for DL's pilots. Management will get the costs they need, labor will shut the place down (which is a 100% pay cut for everyone and there are plenty of pilots who simply will not do that even if the courts and President allow it), or DL will be sold to an airline that can succeed at cutting the costs. To deny that DL pilots will take the cuts comes from the same stupidity that convinced DL pilots that there was no need for cuts back in 2002 and then 2003 and then for most of 2004. When the piper came calling in 2004, the bill was bigger than ever and it just keeps growing. Quit pretending that you can push off reality, do what is necessary, and start over with a new environment of labor-management cooperation to rebuild your beleagured bank accounts. You have nowhere to go but up, boys, so this would be a good time to return to the relationship that existed between DL management and labor years ago. And it is labor's responsibility to indicate they want to have it; you can be assured management will oblige you if you move in their direction. Don't believe me? Look at CO? Ask their pilots how beat up they were for decades by Lorenzo. Once at the bottom they decided to cooperate with management and look what they have done together at CO.
When you are the highest paid in the industry as DL pilots have been, the position at the top is labor's to keep or to lose. So far, DALPA has chosen to give it away through confrontation with management. And remember, ALPA and the AFL-CIO can and will absorb the losses they will incur in the event DL shuts down but DL's pilots will absorb a much, much higher hit. Few if any of those DL pilots will make even the reduced salary DL is offering. Principles are great to fight for but they don't put food on the table or a roof over your head.
To think that DL pilots will continue to be the highest paid in the industry can only occur if one cannot grasp the fundamental laws of business.
Yes, I posted vociferously that UA was a colossal failure of employee ownership ten times worse than at DL because UA had set up just about everything that should have made the employees truly involved in management of the company. The outcome? Years of infighting between labor and management that culminated in labor's demands that they get REPAID for their investment in the company (a completely lack of understanding of what they had been through). So what happened, UA caved and gave the pilots what they wanted, UA couldn't sustain the costs, and ended up in bankruptcy. Not unlike the story at DL.
Unlike DL, though, UA has not done what needs to be done and doesn't understand what they have to do to turn things around. There is absolutely no inconsistency in my postings regarding that. UA has succeeded at exiting bankruptcy but it is far from certain that they will remain a viable airline without another trip through bankruptcy or an acquisition that would allow UA to finish the work they should have done in bankruptcy.
The only flip flop that has occurred is the cerebral fluid sloshing back and forth in the heads of those who have been beat around by management at UA and now DL because they refused to believe that cuts were needed and that they would come.
Newsflash: DL will not be getting cuts from anywhere else. They are coming from the pilots and the pilots will give. PERIOD.
To fail to believe that this is reality is to fail to understand the fundamental law of labor relations:
Employees are paid by their employer, not a labor union. Employers will not continue to pay their employees more than the employer desires to pay for the long term.
It is true that labor unions helped push back DALPA's contribution in 2002 but all that really happened is that the needed contribution got larger and larger and larger. Telling a bill collector to go away never works. And FWAAA is absolutely correct that it will not for DL's pilots. Management will get the costs they need, labor will shut the place down (which is a 100% pay cut for everyone and there are plenty of pilots who simply will not do that even if the courts and President allow it), or DL will be sold to an airline that can succeed at cutting the costs. To deny that DL pilots will take the cuts comes from the same stupidity that convinced DL pilots that there was no need for cuts back in 2002 and then 2003 and then for most of 2004. When the piper came calling in 2004, the bill was bigger than ever and it just keeps growing. Quit pretending that you can push off reality, do what is necessary, and start over with a new environment of labor-management cooperation to rebuild your beleagured bank accounts. You have nowhere to go but up, boys, so this would be a good time to return to the relationship that existed between DL management and labor years ago. And it is labor's responsibility to indicate they want to have it; you can be assured management will oblige you if you move in their direction. Don't believe me? Look at CO? Ask their pilots how beat up they were for decades by Lorenzo. Once at the bottom they decided to cooperate with management and look what they have done together at CO.
When you are the highest paid in the industry as DL pilots have been, the position at the top is labor's to keep or to lose. So far, DALPA has chosen to give it away through confrontation with management. And remember, ALPA and the AFL-CIO can and will absorb the losses they will incur in the event DL shuts down but DL's pilots will absorb a much, much higher hit. Few if any of those DL pilots will make even the reduced salary DL is offering. Principles are great to fight for but they don't put food on the table or a roof over your head.
To think that DL pilots will continue to be the highest paid in the industry can only occur if one cannot grasp the fundamental laws of business.
Addressed to; FWAAA, Ch.12, and PTO(I mean)WTO,(I mean)WT.
FWAAA.
In a situation involving TWU, you'd be right.
In the DL situation, involving DALPA, I think I'M right!
Ch.12,
luv2fly NEVER mentioned the GAY word. I think he meant that "perhaps" you and WT liked "camping, and riding Horses (I'm just Kidding !!!)
World Traveler.
After my last post to you, "SEVERAL" regulars had "views" very close to Mine. (Diesel 8, hardly a "one sided" poster, most notable among them)
No WT, IMHO you have NOT become like USA320Pilot.
YOU'VE become like the MOST famous poster on the NW board........ "PTO" !!!!!
..............................(I'm "NOT" ..Kidding) .......
NH/BB's
FWAAA.
In a situation involving TWU, you'd be right.
In the DL situation, involving DALPA, I think I'M right!
Ch.12,
luv2fly NEVER mentioned the GAY word. I think he meant that "perhaps" you and WT liked "camping, and riding Horses
(I'm just Kidding !!!)World Traveler.
After my last post to you, "SEVERAL" regulars had "views" very close to Mine. (Diesel 8, hardly a "one sided" poster, most notable among them)
No WT, IMHO you have NOT become like USA320Pilot.
YOU'VE become like the MOST famous poster on the NW board........ "PTO" !!!!!
..............................(I'm "NOT" ..Kidding) .......
NH/BB's
World, you live in such a slanted world. United stayed in bankruptcy to do it right the first time. United's stock is through the roof and climbing. Delta is the one in trouble now and it looks like the pilots are NOT going to be helping them out of the hole that management dug themselves.
For the Delta employees who think we may be too tough on old WT, here's an exerpt of the types of posts he regularly shared with us during our darkest days. Nowadays he lives in his little Neverland Ranch in his head and has FLIP FLOPPED on all his old ideals.
So what do you say now WT? Is Delta fighting for their survival? If one reads your posts they'd believe that Delta is doing this just to beat down the big, bad pilots union.
Hmmm, only 2 (now 4) have successfully exited bankruptcy. I don't hold out much hope for Delta now that I've reread your post and saw the enormous losses they've incurred.
For the Delta employees who think we may be too tough on old WT, here's an exerpt of the types of posts he regularly shared with us during our darkest days. Nowadays he lives in his little Neverland Ranch in his head and has FLIP FLOPPED on all his old ideals.
So what do you say now WT? Is Delta fighting for their survival? If one reads your posts they'd believe that Delta is doing this just to beat down the big, bad pilots union.
Hmmm, only 2 (now 4) have successfully exited bankruptcy. I don't hold out much hope for Delta now that I've reread your post and saw the enormous losses they've incurred.
luv2fly
Veteran
It does matter. There are certain criteria that have to be met in order for the board to grant the 1113 request. To be specific, the proposal must be necessary for reorganization. Second, it must be fair and equitable. The parties must have bargained in good faith, and the union must have good cause to refuse the debtor's proposal.
The last being the union's responsibility to prove.
Now having said that look at your statement above. WT, you claim not to be a DL employee. A concerned elite passenger if you wish. You have concluded that DL management has used the BK process to "punish" ALPA. That conclusion under the guidelines above would necessitate the denial of the 1113. If it is that obvious to you, don't you think there is a chance that same conclusion could be reached by a panel of industry experts?
It appears DAL might be doing better, yet to the pilots they keep saying DAL is "tapped out". Perhaps this makes some people realize, that DAL management is not negotiating entirely in good faith.
Anyway, judge for yourself:
According to testimony provided by Delta CFO Bastian, DAL finished 2005 with $400M more in cash than anticipated and January results were $25M better than anticipated.
Excerpts from March 15th transcripts.
Bastian: Well, one major difference, as I
mentioned, is that we did close the year out roughly
$400 million in a better cash position than we had
anticipated in 2005. But that -- you know, most of
the other changes are relatively similar.
Q This morning you said that you were doing
better in January and February of '06. Do you
recall that?
A We were doing a bit better, yes.
Q Could you define the "bit" for us?
A Sure. We ended January about $25 million
in profits better than plan, and February we haven't
announced our results yet, so I'm not sure I'm free
to talk about February.
Anyway, judge for yourself:
According to testimony provided by Delta CFO Bastian, DAL finished 2005 with $400M more in cash than anticipated and January results were $25M better than anticipated.
Excerpts from March 15th transcripts.
Bastian: Well, one major difference, as I
mentioned, is that we did close the year out roughly
$400 million in a better cash position than we had
anticipated in 2005. But that -- you know, most of
the other changes are relatively similar.
Q This morning you said that you were doing
better in January and February of '06. Do you
recall that?
A We were doing a bit better, yes.
Q Could you define the "bit" for us?
A Sure. We ended January about $25 million
in profits better than plan, and February we haven't
announced our results yet, so I'm not sure I'm free
to talk about February.
Cosmo
Veteran
- Aug 20, 2002
- 840
- 0
Sorry, but not only was Delta NOT the "MOST PROFITABLE AIRLINE IN THE WORLD" in 1999 (you didn't mention the year in the above quote but you've said it elsewhere), but it wasn't even the most profitable airline in the United States that year.
Calendar year 1999 results from each carrier's March 2001 SEC Form 10K:
Delta
Operating Profit.....$1.318 Billion
Net Profit.............$1.208 Billion
United
Operating Profit.....$1.391 Billion
Net Profit.............$1.235 Billion
Clearly, both Delta and United were extraordinarily profitable during the "good times" of 1999, but United's results were nonetheless a few percentage points better. So, in reality, United deserves the title of "MOST PROFITABLE AIRLINE IN THE WORLD (in 1999)" -- unless some historically very profitable foreign carriers (like BA or SQ, for example) did even better than United.
WorldTraveler
Corn Field
- Dec 5, 2003
- 21,709
- 10,721
Cosmo,
why don't you put the revenues up there? You are smart enough to know that DL generated far less revenue than UA so had the highest margin.
why don't you put the revenues up there? You are smart enough to know that DL generated far less revenue than UA so had the highest margin.
You are a piece of work. So now you need to add spin to this FACT that UNITED was the MOST PROFITABLE AIRLINE IN THE WORLD because we didn't buy into you little man theory? At least get your facts straight. Either they are the most profitable or they are NOT. Cosmo proved you wrong so now you want to add in the size factor yet months ago you were stating that Delta is actually bigger than United so that means that United did a LOT better than Delta. But heck, don't let the facts get in your way.
Seeing that you enjoy the percentage method of deciding who is the most profitable, how's JB doing? Bet they'd be about the most profitable using your method.
Cosmo
Veteran
- Aug 20, 2002
- 840
- 0
WT:
Well, I didn't include revenues because you were talking about profitability, not margins. And most people understand that the term "profitability" refers to actual dollar amounts, not percentages.
But OK, you want to talk about margins? Fine.
Again, the following information is from each carrier's SEC Form 10K for calendar year 1999:
Delta
Operating Revenues......$14.883 Billion
Operating Profit..............$1.318 Billion
Net Profit......................$1.208 Billion
Operating Margin.............8.9%
Net Margin.....................8.1%
United
Operating Revenues......$18.027 Billion
Operating Profit..............$1.391 Billion
Net Profit......................$1.235 Billion
Operating Margin.............7.7%
Net Margin.....................6.9%
So, yes, if you compare operating and net margins, Delta was more profitable than United on a percentage basis in 1999. But that still doesn't mean that Delta gets the title of "MOST PROFITABLE AIRLINE IN THE WORLD" for that year. You see, there's this pesky airline headquartered near Dallas Love Field ...
Southwest
Operating Revenues........$4.736 Billion
Operating Profit..............$0.782 Billion
Net Profit......................$0.474 Billion
Operating Margin.............16.5%
Net Margin.....................10.0%
So Delta wasn't the "MOST PROFITABLE AIRLINE IN THE WORLD" during 1999 on a margin basis either. What other comparison would you like to see?
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