DELTA tapped out

NHBBs:

Sorry for the delay in the reply. The thread has gotten quite long. Here is my take.

A h, what I don't understand is, it WAS DL's (Most) senior management, that "ALLOWED" Dalpa to BE in that POSITION.

Senior management did allow the pay rate, but it was under duress. With negotiations moving toward further job action, I think that managment had to cave and hope that the economy held so that profits could pay for the contract. However, a strike or off booking would have hurt the company, so management had a Hobson's choice. It took the gamble and lost

IMHO, the Railway Labor Act should be amended to allow for binding arbitration instead of strikes. A panel of arbitrators could look at both sides, if a company was correct in what it could pay, the company's numbers prevail.

If a union's numbers are more compelling, the union prevails. Under the current system, a powerful union can use the threat of a strike to obtain a too lucrative contract. The too lucrative contract weakens a company to the point where it is acquired or enters bankruptcy. Once in Bankrupcy, section 1113 tends to favor the company. In both cases, There is an imbalance of power which leads to poor agreements.

Would the pilots ultimately have been better off if their contract had been a little more market rational? An argument can be made both ways.

That IMHO IS DELTA AIRLINES PROBLEM, and THAT DOES NOT equate that DALPA must take "LARGER" pay cuts.

IMHO, the problem is all of ours. As much as some may hate to admit, management, DALPA and the rest of us are all in the same boat together. This is a case of us vs. us. We will all need to be a lot less dysfunctional if we are to survive.

Let me ask you straight out. ("Despite DALPA being put in a High pay rate BY DL MANAGEMENT) Do you think that they
Should give back "EXTRA" money(Over and above), because of DL's STUPIDITY" ?
(I'm not asking this question from a "moral", or "Do the right thing" standpoint)

Thanx aislehopper !!
NH/BB's

I think that they need to give back enough money to arrive at a rational payrate. Nothing more, nothing less. When I say rational, I mean a payscale that takes into consideration the health of our balance sheet, the projected health of the aviation sector, our costs versus the costs at other carriers, and what our costs need to be to put us in a position of market dominance

If it turns out that management gets too much in concessions, our balance sheet will show it. When the time to negotiate the next contract arrives, DALPA can even the score and get back the amount that it over gave in bankruptcy. The system will balance out.

IMHO, any over sacrifice today by DALPA can be recouped later from a healthy company. Any under participation could allow the company to go to Chaper 7 or allow us to hobble along weakly until someone acquires us. Neither situation is in the best interest of the pilots.

ah
 
Excellent post, aislehopper. And I agree with you that any over-concessions are fairly easily recovered later thru negotiations and/or stock ownership (such as the new DL stock after the current stock is cancelled).

Same thing over at AA: many feel the concessions were too deep. Well, they could have hedged against that possibility when AMR was trading for less than $2/sh. Now it's $27/sh. And if they failed to hedge by buying some stock, there's always the next amendable date. But if you choke the goose, and cause a liquidation, there's no getting any of it back. Ever. And nearly everybody has to start over at another airline or goes on to something else.
 
"IMHO, the Railway Labor Act should be amended to allow for binding arbitration instead of strikes. A panel of arbitrators could look at both sides, if a company was correct in what it could pay, the company's numbers prevail."

Now that is a scary concept and it would totally mitigate the voice of the worker, you would be an even bigger pawn in the game called capitalism. Case in point would be the two Ch.11s at U, not once did the judge side with the employees and every measure the company asked for they got.

Binding arbitration, IMHO, would be a bad deal and IIRC, the pilots at AA turned it down, when it was suggested.
 
My wildcats are moving on! Sunday night may not be so kind, though.

AA employees quickly moved to the bottom of the heap for several years but it was what allowed AA to restructure.

As I have posted, DL could live with the current interim rates if they became permanent. I don't think they would be talking about terminating the pension plan if it did not contain lump sum provisions. Sadly, I don't think you can remove that feature and save the plan if for no other reason that it is so badly damaged from the lump sum payouts that were part of the mass retirements over the past 2 years. I still see DL agreeing to a contract that includes little more than the interim rates plus pension termination plus some work rule changes, including limits on sick time. DL pilots would still be well compensated by comparision with its peers. CO and AA pilots right now would make more but DL pilots would be ahead of the peers below them on the pay scale, all of which were from recently bankrupt companies and all of which except NW possibly would have lost their pensions.

The difference, however, is that DL will soon be quickly deciding the future of the structure of the company and it will undoubtedly hold stock grants and profit sharing targets for all employee groups. By taking more money now, DALPA could have signed themselves up for smaller stakes in the reorganized DL. While most airline equity has been worthless for employees, I believe this will be different. AA and CO have proven that employees can be given stock and performance based compensation and gain from it.

As I have said before, the three long term survivors in the industry will be AA, CO, and DL and probably the new US. Note that all are southern companies. NW and UA will be acquired by one of the four above.
 
YOU are certifiable. Nothing much more to say about you now that you have proven you are seriously delusional. UA will be here for a long time, but Delta is beating on death's door. If UA consolidates (which is fairly likely since Tilton mentions it quite often) UA will be the acquiring entity.
 
Now that is a scary concept and it would totally mitigate the voice of the worker, you would be an even bigger pawn in the game called capitalism. Case in point would be the two Ch.11s at U, not once did the judge side with the employees and every measure the company asked for they got.


The unions do not like it as evidenced by the way they bristle if the topic is ever seriously brought up.

However, consider this. Generally, an arbitrator is the last step in a progressive discipline system or grievance. Many times, the arbitrator sides with the union and management whines about a "bad" employee getting his/her job back or benefit restored.

The arbitration blade cuts both ways.

IMHO, setting a multimember panel for major disputes like contracts will allow both parties have a fair shot at getting not "their" deal but a fair one. Arbitration could take out the excesses that lead to situtations like our current one.

Before arbitration, both parties will feel pressure to deal because they will lose control if it goes to arbitration.

With strikes and lockouts gone, the utility of propaganda and posturing will be reduced which could lead to more productive relationships between managment and labor.

The current system needs to be improved. Conflict is endemic in the current RLA negotiation process, and too much resentment lingers after negotiations are over.
 
First let me say for me personally, the pay rates are not what I find offensive and not what I would strike over. But here they are. All rates taken from Airlinepilotcentral.com, so you can check and verify for yourself.

The current Delta rates on this website are from the interim letter of agreement which included a 14% pay cut from the previous pay rates. The company is seeking 19% from the previous pay rates, so the company proposal would be another 5% cut from the posted rates.

This is for a common size airplane that most all competitors fly, the 737-700/800 and A-319/320 and 717. All rates, 12 year captain pay

SWA 190
CAL 163 for a 738, 144 for a 737-700
AA 158
Frontier 157
Alaska 154
Airtran 153
DAL 149
Hawaiian 148
Midwest 148
Jetblue 139 (at JB all hours above 70 pay time and a half)
AWA 138 (yes for now USAir and AWA have seperate rates)
Spirit 138
NWA 137
UAL 129
Aloha 128
USAir 125
The $149 rate is for the NG aircraft.
For a more apples to apples comparision the Delta rate is more like $134 (generic 737). If management gets the full 19% then it will be $126.
So the Delta rates would not be in the middle of the pact. They are on the lower end and would be even lower if the company gets what it wants.
 
Sadly, I don't think you can remove that feature and save the plan if for no other reason that it is so badly damaged from the lump sum payouts that were part of the mass retirements over the past 2 years.

Probably true, but DL management agreed to this lump sum payout plan. Keep in mind that the mass retirements were caused largely by pilots realizing the company was a sinking ship and therefore protecting their retirements. I can't really blame them. They worked hard for that retirement money and didn't want to end up like the UA/US pilots who lost a huge chunk of their retirement money. If DL pilots had more confidence in the direction of the company, many of those retirements wouldn't have happened.

I still see DL agreeing to a contract that includes little more than the interim rates plus pension termination plus some work rule changes, including limits on sick time.

As others have said, I don't think pay is the big sticking point. The big issues are:

1) Pension...pilots want credit for the termination.
2) Scope...pilots don't want to see DL replace another 50-100 mainline planes with RJ's.
3) QOL items...pilots want to retain some semblance of having a professional career.

As I have said before, the three long term survivors in the industry will be AA, CO, and DL and probably the new US. Note that all are southern companies. NW and UA will be acquired by one of the four above.

Given DL's debt load, I don't seem them with any ability to acquire anything. Although to be honest, I don't see any big mergers/acquisitions coming. The majors will either sink or swim on their own.
 
It appears these rates do not reflect the pay cuts NW pilots are voting on now - and DL pilots with a 5% cut off the above rates would still be higher paid than NW's current rates.
WT
Not true. Do the math!
Also the rates the NW pilots are voting on are the current rates. Once again you really don't know what you are talking about.
Your right, cut and paste is a beautiful thing. If you are going to bash and blame labor for DAL's woes then know what you are talking about before you open your mouth.

mistified
 
The $149 rate is for the NG aircraft.
For a more apples to apples comparision the Delta rate is more like $134 (generic 737). If management gets the full 19% then it will be $126.
So the Delta rates would not be in the middle of the pact. They are on the lower end and would be even lower if the company gets what it wants.

Mistified, you know I was looking at what I posted again this morning and I agree with you. In the name of accuracy though, I will repost the list, adding to it the Delta 737-200/300 and the MD-88, both of which fit into the size range for the rest of the airlines and aircraft quoted.


Also, WorldTravelor, the NWA rates are the rates agreed to in the new TA at NWA. Basically, for the pay rates their the new TA made their interim pay rates permanant.

Here goes, this time with explanations on the aircraft.

Aircraft basically from the 717/DC-9 up to the 737-800/A320

SWA $190 all 737s
CAL $163 737-800
AA $158 737-800
Frontier $157 A318/319
Alaska $154 MD-80 and All 737s
AA $154 MD-80
Airtran $153 737-700 and 717
DAL $149 737-800
Hawaiian $148 717
Midwest $148 MD-80 and 717
CAL $144 737-700/300/500
Jetblue $139 A320(at JB all hours above 70 pay time and a half)
AWA $138 A320 and 737-300(yes for now USAir and AWA have seperate rates)
DAL $138 MD-80
Spirit $138 MD-80 and A-319
NWA $137 A-320
DAL $134 737-200/300 (note this is also the contractual rate for a 737-700)
UAL $129 A319/320 and 737-300/500
Aloha $128 737-700
USAir $125 A-319/320 and 737-300/400
NWA $124 DC-9
 
The $149 rate is for the NG aircraft.
For a more apples to apples comparision the Delta rate is more like $134 (generic 737). If management gets the full 19% then it will be $126.
So the Delta rates would not be in the middle of the pact. They are on the lower end and would be even lower if the company gets what it wants.
Just curious, but is DL actually flying any 732s and 733s anymore. I thought that these planes were the first that were going to be parked/returned in BK?
 
Just curious, but is DL actually flying any 732s and 733s anymore. I thought that these planes were the first that were going to be parked/returned in BK?


Don't know about the 733, but the 732 is still flying and will be around till September or October.
 
Don't know about the 733, but the 732 is still flying and will be around till September or October.
I think the 733s are gone (or going) as that is why MD80s are now on the Shuttle.

BK is a one time opportunity to right size an airline. It will be interesting to see what unprofitable routes/planes DL drops. My guess is that they will hunker down in ATL and JFK, shrink CVG, Florida, and (to a lesser extent) SLC -- dropping around 100 mainline and 100 RJs in the process.
 
BK is a one time opportunity to right size an airline. It will be interesting to see what unprofitable routes/planes DL drops. My guess is that they will hunker down in ATL and JFK, shrink CVG, Florida, and (to a lesser extent) SLC -- dropping around 100 mainline and 100 RJs in the process.

Most of what you just listed has already been done. Except for retiring the last of the 732/733, DL has mostly completed the fleet restructuring. With the 732/733 gone, DL mainline should have a fleet of about 440 planes...down from 610 planes on 9/11/01.

DL has already "hunkered down" at ATL and is building up JFK again. CVG took a 26% cut last December and Florida took a similar sized hit. SLC is actually being grown a little bit.

Of course, if things don't go well with the restructuring you may see additional cuts. I expect CVG could take another hit and the entire JFK operation is still suspect if it can't produce results.
 
aislehopper,

I know I don't have to say to you, that I hope nothing BAD happens to you(Your Job), because I know, that YOU know, that I feel that way!

Having said that, I agree with your all your points, except the last one.
DALPA has "every right" to keep the $$$ concessions to as low as possible, and if they have to use the threat of a STRIKE, so be it.

If DALPA winds up giving back $225M of the $325M that DL is demanding, well, so be it !

If the remaing $100M is taken out of the "hide" of the Non Union folks, well "so be it"(And you know why that might happen, but I wont "push" the point to you, because you and I know why)

I wish you the very Best !!

your friend

NH/BB's