DL JFK-TLV changes

[737823]

So clearly TLV isn't working for DL but does for AC, LY, UA, and US. In 2010 DL made a big deal moving from 763 to 744 and I believe TLV was among the first cross fleeting on longhaul routes (could be mistaken).


Josh

 

[WorldTraveler]

doesn't work?

airlines constantly move capacity in and out of markets.

not working as well as it would by using a different aircraft? yes

If TLV wsn't working for DL and they believed it was permanent, you can bet they would cancel it.

and remind me again but doesn't DL have a larger share of the US-TLV market even with the 777 downgrade than AA/US has?

DL has never been larger than UA/CO to TLV and that doesn't seem to be changing.

 

[BABABOOY]

Didn't Delta at one time, a bit briefly, carry more passengers when we had daily 744 service from JFK and daily 777 from ATL? A shame we are now down to a daily 777.

 

[WorldTraveler]

yes.

ATL carried a lot of lower yielding connecting traffic.

I need to confirm the dates but I believe it was also early in the current fuel price environment.

DL flew 767s from ATL to the Middle East at one time as well. It is possible that if fuel prices remain low and the Middle East stays calm, there might be more demand that makes sense to serve.

also El Al is increasing service via extra frequencies to both JFK and EWR that are very comparable to what DL is cutting. I"m not sure which came first.

 

[737823]

WT I flew ATL-TLV-ATL in July 2011 on the 77L pretty sure it ended August 31, 2011 and has never resumed. Up until Spring 2011 DL had AMM & CAI from JFK as well, pretty sure they also had them in the early 2000s but suspended after 9/11. As for TLV I believe launched from ATL in late 2005, JFK was launched March 2008.

http://news.delta.com/index.php?s=20295&item=122916

Josh

 

[topDawg]

 
This may be slightly off topic, but here is goes:  I was under the impression that flying the 744s across the Pacific is the region to utilize the aircraft because the demand, especially to China is so strong.  So how come UA and DL are having trouble?  Is it just the high cost of operating a somewhat dated aircraft (compared to the B777 for example)?
 
Also, if the 744s are too expensive to operate across the Pacific, would DL consider to  bring them back to fly across the Atlantic to AF/KL hubs?  IIRC, back in the day when it was just NW-KL, the 744s were common on routes like DTW-AMS.  Is there actually a EU destination that sees DL 744's on a regular basis?  (I don't count TLV as a part of EU, for me EU ends at Turkey.......)

no. They are going to be parked, but have no fear Delta has already said they would use capacity from the Atlantic to replace them. (along with the new 333s) 
 

I thought the new 333s were meant for growth. At any rate it's too bad DL is pulling capacity especially for such an important route from JFK. The DL product on the 744 UD was the best direct US-TLV but at this point either AC or LX/LY are better options and cheaper.

Josh

16 744s leaving. 
10 333 coming
 
= another false statement from management
 

So clearly TLV isn't working for DL but does for AC, LY, UA, and US. In 2010 DL made a big deal moving from 763 to 744 and I believe TLV was among the first cross fleeting on longhaul routes (could be mistaken).


Josh

Running from competition to raise margins. The story of TATL flying for Delta for 5 years at least. 
 
 
JFK-TLV will probably be dropped and outsourced to AF/KL 
 

Didn't Delta at one time, a bit briefly, carry more passengers when we had daily 744 service from JFK and daily 777 from ATL? A shame we are now down to a daily 777.

yep. 
 

yes.

ATL carried a lot of lower yielding connecting traffic.

I need to confirm the dates but I believe it was also early in the current fuel price environment.

DL flew 767s from ATL to the Middle East at one time as well. It is possible that if fuel prices remain low and the Middle East stays calm, there might be more demand that makes sense to serve.

also El Al is increasing service via extra frequencies to both JFK and EWR that are very comparable to what DL is cutting. I"m not sure which came first.

No they didn't. the 767 did CAI/AMM and TLV from JFK. I can't think of a middle east route the 767 has done from ATL. Only Middle east routes out of ATL that I can remember have been TLV (777), DXB(777) and KWI(777) 
 
(note they did some sub flying to TLV once in a blue moon, but they had to black seats in the back to do it.) 

 

[WorldTraveler]

you still can't grasp that 10 airplanes that actually stay in the air will deliver more revenue than 16 which spend an average of 8 hours or more on the ground in Asia and another 15 or more on the ground in the US.

has it ever occurred to you that the 747 you have looked at every night is an asset that isn't being fully used.

tell me when that 747 arrives from NRT and when it leaves again the next day?

how many hours is that plane on the ground.

Now repeat the same exercise with each of the 747s in DTW.

and then repeat in each of the cities where they overnight in Asia.


add up all of those hours, deduct a couple hours for a turn and then see if you can't fly the same schedule with fewer aircraft.

and no, DL won't outsource JFK-TLV to any Skyteam partner.

Do you really stay up nights thinking about the next stupid thing you can say?

 

[jcw]

That's right DL does not have a single plane sitting overseas any length of time

Double check the schedule

 

[WorldTraveler]

are that dense that you can't read what was written?
of course I said DL has airplanes sitting overseas.

that is precisely the point.

By reducing intra-Asia flying, DL can fly more flights with fewer aircraft.

 

[FrugalFlyerv2.0]

By reducing intra-Asia flying, DL can fly more flights with fewer aircraft.

 
I think you're being a wee bit too optimistic here and perhaps hoping that DL can defy the laws of physics again (time & space).
 
With 16 aircraft leaving, 10 new aircraft arriving it'll be pretty tough to operate more flights with fewer aircraft.
Even with tweaked schedules and turn times, there;s going to be some reductions throughout the system.

 

[WorldTraveler]

then you can help dawg compile a list of widebody aircraft that pass thru the NRT hub enroute from the US to other points in Asia.

If you compiled that list, you would see that DL has widebody aircraft arriving from the US between 4.30 pm and 5 pm.

those aircraft leave about 1 - 1 1/2 hours later and go onto other points in Asia.

those airplanes overnight in Asia.

the next day they return to NRT and leave for the US around 3.30 pm.

in other words, it is impossible based on the current NRT bank structure for an aircraft to arrive from the US ON THE PROPER CONNECTING BANK and return to the US ON THE PROPER CONNECTING BANK on the same day.

however, if you look at the ATL flight, it now arrives several hours BEFORE the rest of the US arrivals and the aircraft RETURNS TO ATL on the bank with the rest of the US bound flights.

Instead of sitting on the ground in Asia for nearly a day, the 777 that operates ATL returns to the US where it is cycled thru the rest of the 777 rotation which includes to JNB and DXB. in both directions, a 777 can arrive from DXB or JNB and continue the rotation to NRT or vice versa.

IN contrast, count how many widebody aircraft sit at DTW and overnight there because, other than a relatively short flight to Europe - an aircraft cannot arrive from Asia and continue on to someplace else. The JFK-TLV flight uses part of the 18 hours or so that the aircraft would sit on the ground at JFK. NW and DL have both used aircraft arriving from Asia in DTW to operate a flight to AMS or more recently LHR and that aircraft can return to the US and then make up a flight to Asia.

so, yes, eliminating the intra-Asia flights and operating nonstop flights to the US will actually result in a greater number of block hours with fewer aircraft

 

[BABABOOY]

Why is everyone fixated TODAY thinking that 10 A333 will replace 14 744's ?
Why not wait until the upcoming a/c order announcement  THEN make judgments ?
Isn't the order supposed to be for 763 AND 744 replacement ?   
Lets see what Delta orders and the time frame of first deliveries.  

 

[WorldTraveler]

exactly...

any of the planes that are on the table are not only TATL capable but also TPAC capable. DL uses 767s to fly the Pacific, is switching to larger and more capable 332s. None of the new aircraft under consideration in the RFP are as small as the 767 and all have more range than both the current generation 332s or 767s.

given that current generation 330s have operated both DTW and MSP to Asia, the increased performance of any new aircraft should allow DL to develop more US-Asia flying including from hubs such as MSP that only have NRT flights.

and those who can't quite understand how 10 333s can fly as many TPAC miles as 16 744s can might want to count the number of widebody flights DL operates beyond NRT....

psst..... NRT-HNL uses the intra-Asia part of a US-NRT rotation- currently MSP or JFK

 

[topDawg]

Why is everyone fixated TODAY thinking that 10 A333 will replace 14 744's ?
Why not wait until the upcoming a/c order announcement  THEN make judgments ?
Isn't the order supposed to be for 763 AND 744 replacement ?   
Lets see what Delta orders and the time frame of first deliveries.  

two things, its 16 744s
and 2017 last flight date makes it very hard for Delta to get a replacement for the 744. Its going to be pretty hard for Delta to get 787/350 slots that soon. 
 
 
 
oh and those 333 were for growth btw. 
 

then you can help dawg compile a list of widebody aircraft that pass thru the NRT hub enroute from the US to other points in Asia.

If you compiled that list, you would see that DL has widebody aircraft arriving from the US between 4.30 pm and 5 pm.

those aircraft leave about 1 - 1 1/2 hours later and go onto other points in Asia.

those airplanes overnight in Asia.

the next day they return to NRT and leave for the US around 3.30 pm.

in other words, it is impossible based on the current NRT bank structure for an aircraft to arrive from the US ON THE PROPER CONNECTING BANK and return to the US ON THE PROPER CONNECTING BANK on the same day.

however, if you look at the ATL flight, it now arrives several hours BEFORE the rest of the US arrivals and the aircraft RETURNS TO ATL on the bank with the rest of the US bound flights.

Instead of sitting on the ground in Asia for nearly a day, the 777 that operates ATL returns to the US where it is cycled thru the rest of the 777 rotation which includes to JNB and DXB. in both directions, a 777 can arrive from DXB or JNB and continue the rotation to NRT or vice versa.

IN contrast, count how many widebody aircraft sit at DTW and overnight there because, other than a relatively short flight to Europe - an aircraft cannot arrive from Asia and continue on to someplace else. The JFK-TLV flight uses part of the 18 hours or so that the aircraft would sit on the ground at JFK. NW and DL have both used aircraft arriving from Asia in DTW to operate a flight to AMS or more recently LHR and that aircraft can return to the US and then make up a flight to Asia.

so, yes, eliminating the intra-Asia flights and operating nonstop flights to the US will actually result in a greater number of block hours with fewer aircraft

you keep talking about intra-asia flying that the 744 is doing but the only flight the 747 does inside of Asia now is NRT-MNL. 
 
NRT-TPE, PVG, HKG,GUM, SPN, BKK, SIN is all 333/777/767/752. 
 
NRT-HNL does have 1 744 turn off and one but it is mostly 333/767 now. 
 
and starting soon NRT will only see 1 747 a day. 

 

[737823]

Dawg specific to TLV why is DL abandoning so much of the market? Don't they get that it's a key market from NYC and is a fast growing transatlantic route? I do think within the next year or so AA or LY will be flying MIA-TLV but it's a shame to see DL walk away from so much of the market.

Josh