DL to suspend SEA-HND Flights

[WorldTraveler]

for someone that is so quick to call me out deflections, having a fixation with what I post to the exclusion of the reality that DL's Tokyo performance - even to HND is strong in every market except SEA-HND where DL does very well to NRT.

No, I'm not worried about what AA is outperforming DL at.

I have noted that in the topic we are discussing here, DL's performance to Tokyo is above average for US carriers.

SEA-HND is the weak link. Given how well DL does on SEA-NRT, it is clear HND slots are the problem.

and as for return on used bubble gum statistic, if AA was doing as well as you want to believe it is relative to DL, AA"s market cap would be on par with DL - but it isn't.

 

[jcw]

wait a minute are you saying you have detailed route profitability of DL's routes - have you hacked DL
 
good for you to admit that SEA-HND is not performing

 

[WorldTraveler]

since you clearly aren't smart enough to figure it out, I can and do let other people get the last word in if they say something that is remotely close to rational.

when you post stuff like you have before, there is no way that I am going to walk away from a conversation and let you remain saying something as ridiculous as what you just said.

Profitability is not hard to at least guess at given that revenues are public knowledge and costs are made known on both a system and global region level.

No, I don't know any carrier's specific route profitability.

but given that DL carries more revenue on its LAX-HND than AA carries on either of its two LAX-Asia flights and DL uses a smaller aircraft, the chances are very high that DL is more profitable than either AA or UA are from LAX to Asia.

and let's keep in mind that these facts are just about DL's LAX-HND route vs. AA and UA's LAX to Asia routes.

DL's LAX-NRT route carries almost as much revenue as AA and UA's LAX-NRT flights combined and almost as much as AA carries on both of its two LAX-Asia flights.

So, it isn't hard to figure that LAX-NRT is either highly profitable for DL or everyone else loses money.

The revenue DL carries from LAX to NRT and HND is so much larger than what AA or UA carries to Tokyo that it is not hard to see not only why DL manages to win key contracts but also will work very hard to maintain that revenue, in spite of what any other carriers do.

don't come back with some ridiculous statement and you might get the last word in.

 

[AdAstraPerAspera]

Nobody likes you.

 

[WorldTraveler]

when people make friends based on whether they tell them things they want to hear vs. the truth, then I am not much interested in those types of friends.

hoards of people have tried to argue about DL's weakness to Asia including HND.

DOT data which is far from secret shows that DL generates stronger revenues on its LAX-HND route than AA or UA do from LAX to other routes.

HND is a viable destination from two cities so far - LAX and SFO.

SEA does better than DTW or JFK did but SEA is not able to support a year round HND flight.

The DOT will decide against a lot of public pressure as to how the US should handle airport access that was given to the US but which really only works from two mainline cities when NRT service works from many times more cities.

 

[AdAstraPerAspera]

AA's growth in Asia has to come at the expense of someone. Just like all that LatAm growth of the Widget's that due any day now, right?

 

[Glenn Quagmire]

Nobody likes you.

Precisely. It is shame that you cannot grasp the fundamental issue of profit sharing among legacy network carriers with omnidirectional interior hubs that have a great prasm, NYC profitability, moon thumbs per seat mile, west coast hub diversity, leading with insourcing while strategically using outsourcing, having higher average salary among employed workers who are eligible to work full time, while allowing those who don't want full time to exercise their right to not want benefits while working for a legacy carrier who has strategically used the purchase of a refinery to lower fuel prices for all airlines in the United States.

 

[WorldTraveler]

AA's growth in Asia has to come at the expense of someone. Just like all that LatAm growth of the Widget's that due any day now, right?

since DL has been profitable across the Pacific for two full years - something AA, HA, or UA has not done - and DL has recorded DOT profits of nearly $1.7 billion over the Pacific in the time frame, it certainly doesn't appear that AA's "success" is coming from DL.

since AA has lost money in every quarter in flying the Pacific for about 16 straight quarters and those losses are over $750 million, it is pretty hard to argue that AA is doing damage to anyone except its stockholdrs.
 

Precisely. It is shame that you cannot grasp the fundamental issue of profit sharing among legacy network carriers with omnidirectional interior hubs that have a great prasm, NYC profitability, moon thumbs per seat mile, west coast hub diversity, leading with insourcing while strategically using outsourcing, having higher average salary among employed workers who are eligible to work full time, while allowing those who don't want full time to exercise their right to not want benefits while working for a legacy carrier who has strategically used the purchase of a refinery to lower fuel prices for all airlines in the United States.

IOW, you have no clue what the real business issues in the industry are so instead you just mock those who can actually talk about them.

and you aren't even terribly original or clever - just assimilating a litany of what other people have said.

but, hey, you landed on your feet after your union's complete strategic failure - and you really don't care that many others in the same place as you didn't fare as well. But you got yours - that there is the perfect failure of union economics if there ever was an example... and the rest of your understanding of airline economics is no better.

 

[eolesen]

Nobody likes you.

Close. Nobody respects him.

There are a lot of knowledgeable people on these forums who can and do discuss business issues on a regular basis. What turns people off is the overall lack of respect he shows for anyone else's view except his own.

Frankly, it's just not worth being talked down to all the time. It's why the DL forum is a shadow of what it used to be.

 

[Kev3188]

Precisely. It is shame that you cannot grasp the fundamental issue of profit sharing among legacy network carriers with omnidirectional interior hubs that have a great prasm, NYC profitability, moon thumbs per seat mile, west coast hub diversity, leading with insourcing while strategically using outsourcing, having higher average salary among employed workers who are eligible to work full time, while allowing those who don't want full time to exercise their right to not want benefits while working for a legacy carrier who has strategically used the purchase of a refinery to lower fuel prices for all airlines in the United States.

...And that's just in N.Texas...
 
 

IOW, you have no clue what the real business issues in the industry are...

Please see below.
 
 

...There are a lot of knowledgeable people on these forums who can and do discuss business issues on a regular basis. What turns people off is the overall lack of respect he shows for anyone else's view except his own.

Frankly, it's just not worth being talked down to all the time...

Bingo.

 

[Glenn Quagmire]

Close. Nobody respects him.There are a lot of knowledgeable people on these forums who can and do discuss business issues on a regular basis. What turns people off is the overall lack of respect he shows for anyone else's view except his own.Frankly, it's just not worth being talked down to all the time. It's why the DL forum is a shadow of what it used to be.

We have a winner. I know several of us on here have (graduate) degrees in business/aviation/finance. Many of us actually get paid to do what he longs for. We have just decided that is not worth our time to engage somebody like him on this forum. It seems that he thinks we are all sitting in a pew, looking up at a lectern.

It will be interesting to see how the HND route plays out. The decisions should be a good read.

 

[WorldTraveler]

Close. Nobody respects him.

There are a lot of knowledgeable people on these forums who can and do discuss business issues on a regular basis. What turns people off is the overall lack of respect he shows for anyone else's view except his own.

Frankly, it's just not worth being talked down to all the time. It's why the DL forum is a shadow of what it used to be.

except the DL forum is as active as the AA forum... perhaps close.

some minion like yourself that counts post activity could probably whip up the statistic in a heartbeat.

The DL forum is the only one that has any prayer of existing besides AA post merger. This site has long been a magnet for AA and US' disgruntled employees fighting over union related issues.

The activity on the DL forum exists - like it or not - solely because airlineforums would become a single carrier forum in a heartbeat. There is no meaningful activity for any other airline besides AA and DL on this forum.

and I am fully aware that there are people on this forum who can contribute to business issues.

when people turn business discussions into personal attacks, then there is no hope that the discussions will be peaceful and productive.

and as much as you want to try to point the blame, you were absolutely the leader in turning business discussions into personal attacks. There are umpteen threads on AA's performance on the Pacific, their BK, DAL and Latin America, the merger and other key strategic issues that I started or contributed to regarding facts which you and others have turned into personal attacks on me because you didn't like the facts presented.

The personal attacks have started on thread after thread almost entirely by AA fans who couldn't stand the business discussions that were taking place. I am hardly justifying my tone, but when one discussion after another that starts on business issues that I have started turns into personal attacks on me, then it is clear where the problem lies.

if there is any doubt about this long standing trend that is deeply rooted in the culture of this board, go back and look at this thread.

what in the hell does whether someone like or respect me have to do with the performance of AA or DL in the Tokyo market or where HND flights have worked or not?

absolutely nowhere.

if you want the culture of this board to change, then how about you admit that you started a trend which has grown and grown on this forum of attacking people who provide factual information which you don't want to read, apologize for it, and then start calling on people who do it - all of them.

I commend Kev for speaking out and trying to change the culture of the board.... but his efforts are one-sided.

I am not going to back down from speaking about the key business issues.

In the case of this topic, as much as some people don't want to believe it, DL's LAX-HND flight is as profitable or more so than anything AA flies to Asia except DFW-NRT and more profitable than UA's LAX routes. There are publicly available revenue figures that show carrier revenue performance.

the problem with HND is SEA and it is due to the slot times; SEA is a small market relative to SFO and LAX, the only two mainland destinations that have worked to HND.

It is up to the DOT to decide if they are going to allow services to HND which were provided as part of Open Skies and JVs is a fair trade if those services will be disproportionately concentrated in the hands of AA/JL and UA/NH who also got JVs out of the process and to the exclusion of other cities including SEA where US DOT policy has long been to use int'l route access to improve air service for all of the US.

based on every piece of evidence, the US- Japan Open Skies treaty which included HND access has been a complete failure at increasing the number of routes that have Tokyo service and in diversifying carrier strength.

DOT's decision on whether DL retains SEA-HND and is allowed to operate it even if on a less than daily basis has to reflect the realities of the very poor job DOT did in agreeing to and signing the US-Japan Open Skies treaty

 

[jcw]

no now he is a minon
 
Let's see you have a 15 to 3 ratio on him for posting

 

[eolesen]

The culture of this board is just fine, with a few notable exceptions.

There are countless issues where Kevin, Glenn, Dawg, FWAAA, Ad, and dozens of others and I will be diametrically opposed.

The difference is that there's some respect shown on both sides of those conversations. You don't see most people here belittle the other person's qualifications, lack of experience, lack of proof/citations, or even spelling errors.

In the old days, we used to have these types of conversations at the bar down the road from the employee parking lot. You'd see a regular crowd of supervisors, agents, bag handlers, mechanics, and a few managers as well. What was said at the bar stayed at the bar. Thank God that was before the days of political correctness...

If you took the attitude there than you do here, you would have had your ass kicked inside out, and you'd have never found a seat at the bar ever again.

Here, at least with the hands-off moderating style that's persisted since Kevin left, that's clearly not possible,

Since you hide behind the cloak of anonymity and have the worst case of internet courage I've ever encountered, your ass kickings simply have taken on a different form.

 

[WorldTraveler]

If that was the worst I have been called on this forum, I would consider myself lucky. very lucky.

Focusing on board activity and reputation scores hasn't done one iota to change the board and it won't change anything now. You can talk about after hours bar activity if you want, but this is the internet and you aren't talking with just your select group of friends.

The simple reality is that things are said in writing and on the internet that people don't and won't say in person - me included. This board was built on anonymity.

If you want a feel good, sanitized view of reality in order to push your agenda and shield you from reality, then you are in the wrong place.

The sooner you recognize the environment in which this board operates and base discussions on the truth instead of what makes you feel good, it will be better for all involved.

what will matter is recognizing that SEA is now the 3rd mainland city to HND for which both AA and DL can't or won't sustain year round service as AA thinks should exist.

The issue is simply that the DOT agreed to provisions in the Japan -US Open Skies agreement which provide very little benefit to the US outside of LAX and SFO which is also where JL and NH can sustain HND service.

The DOT should turn the route case into a review of the benefits of the US Japan Open Skies agreement and act based on what should be clear findings that the deal was not equitable to the US side - including the fact that AA has shrunk the size of its US -Japan operation as well continues to underperform its US peers in financial performance of AA's remaining Japanese services. JL benefitted from the JV while AA has gotten very little for it.

DL has been forced to try to defend its NRT hub with a patchwork of poor-performing HND services of which DL managed to get one that works. It is too early to know how UA will do but the chances are they will succeed. UA came out the best in the US-Japan market in terms of sustaining less disruption and gaining from a larger JV partner.

you and others can focus on insignificance if it makes you feel better.