stop the outsourcing?

[700UW]

Drinking too much of the wine there in Brazil? It was a typo on my phone, not on the computer.

So you can't refute the facts that US and AA are recalling and hiring due to more work being done in-house and not by a vendor. And PS I don't drink.

 

[WorldTraveler]

You do realize that Brazil is not known for wine? Argentina and Chile, more so.

It was good for a laugh.

regardless of whether AA is recalling or not, AA's labor cost increases were some of the highest in the industry and AA added more employees than they increased traffic.

Overstuffed or overstaffed.

You can celebrate the additional heads but it is economically unsustainable for one company to be adding costs faster than their peers.

The rules of the market are different from elsewhere. The market always wins.

 

[topDawg]

give me a list of the number of mainline staffed stations that AA, DL, and UA had at the time of the merger (including merger partners) and what they have now and it will be very apparent that DL employees have indeed faired better.
Thanks 100% to Northwest. Delta hasn't cut any stations now because they know if they do they will have a ramp union so fast it will make their heads spin. 
and btw I think AA/US is going to have more below wing stations than Delta FWIW. 
And the BW only distinction is meaningless because DL absolutely allows qualified staff to move between workgroups with no loss of pay or seniority - something that is non-existent at many union airlines.
wait what? Its not meaningless.  You just admitted that me an Kev are right with this. That is really a said excuse.....   
and yes, AA is absolutely increasing their labor costs in order to avoid laying off employees as a result of the merger. IN the last quarter's earnings release, they increased labor costs by 10.2% and employees grew by 2.6% on a consolidated YOY basis - faster the rate of growth of RPMs.

AA's labor cost is going to increase because of PMUS employees were, some how, paid less than what AA was getting in most work groups. This is something Parker knew would happen and is okay with it happening. AA is well below their peers for pay in every work group. Your little "fact" is completely pointless. 
 

and tell me when since 7.5 which was nearly 20 years ago happened that happened...
2006? 

as for BW vs. consolidated ACS ranks at DL, it is precisely because there are many DL employees who have shifted from BW to AW and remained in their current station that the issue is just not as big as you want to make it out to be.
​huh? that didn't happen basically at all that I know of during BK. The vast majority of stations that were cut below wing ended up with those employees out of work. Delta didn't cut 1000 below wing jobs and give them all (any of them really) jobs. 
how about you give us an updated list of how many cities that DL has AW agents in and then compare that to the number of locations where AA or other airline employees can move between AW and BW without loss of seniority or pay/benefits.
Why does that matter? AFAIK AA works the same way DL does when it comes to lay-offs. You can take a job that is open as long as you qualify.
 
Now You can't bump someone above wing if your below wing, but (At least during BK) Delta didn't allow bumps anyway. Your points is completely useless.  (and this is by far your worst argument I have seen on here) 
the reality is that DL's unified non-union ACS workgroup has given employees flexibility to retain their positions and/or locations that other airlines cannot match. Even among those who were impacted by 7.5, many went to a res office in order to remain in their city, often only to return years later.
Delta doesn't work that way boss. you get a job above wing if there is a job to be have. In times of mass lay-offs that is basically a non-starter. I can't think of a single station they closed in BK that those guys got to move upstairs. Maybe 1 or 2 out of the thousands that got laid-off, but not anywhere close to a meaningful number. 
Even AMTs in Dallas and Tampa hit the streets or got ASM jobs with junior guys on the line or in the hangar here.    
A current high level mgmt. person in a PMNW hub was bumped by 7.5 and went to res only to return to ACS and restarted her/his climb up the ACS ranks including the usual moves to other locations.
1 person out of how many?
a non-union workforce provides flexibility that was true in 7.5 and is still true today.

thats not flexibility. Even if it is you have to be a special kind of stupid to keep that flexibility when a company has stations with 40-50 flights that are worked by DGS. Flexibility doesn't do anyone any good when your at home jobless.  
 
All it takes is one management change, and I think it'll happen if the president of Delta becomes CEO, and we are back to Ron Allens plan of DGSing the hubs below wing. That could happen, has come very close to happening before (well it did happen, Dallas did go DGS on the ramp) tomorrow if Richard wanted to. Couldn't happen at AA or UA. 
 

 

Bring it. The more AMT's across the system, the better!

If only Delta thought that way. 
 
The more contractors the better is their tag line. 
 
With all this mainline growth WT keeps talking about though you'd think they would be bringing in guys everyday. How many jobs does Delta have open in Atlanta? none. Now if those 717s were getting overhauls done in-house i bet they would be hiring people. Not much mainline growth when your outsourcing as much as you can........

 

[Airlinelifer]

I hear the excuse of returning DL M/L rampers to contracted stations as being too expensive, what a crock, when they know darn well that when they decide to open any stations to BW (ramp) employees 50% will be Ready Reserve (no benefits, restricted hours worked yearly) and 50% will be divided between Full Time and part time employees at WHATEVER ratio Delta so desires. 
 
It wasn't to long ago that an airline making tens of millions in profit was cause for celebration, and we were fighting tooth and nail to put that one passengers butt on our aircraft seat (all while competing against a dozen or more airlines back in the early Eighties). 
 
They told Congress that less competition was better, they got what they wanted, what excuse do they have now, 4 major airlines, a couple of strong players less than half the size of the legacies.
 
If Anderson wants to expand the brand, he should start by getting more D E L T A mainline ramp employees in stations that have the flights to warrant them.

 

[southwind]

Didn't realize it's the presidents fault that companies are hiring people at $8/hr. That must be why so many are fighting the $10/hr min wage proposal..

If BaRack would help close the immigration flood gates, they would not be here for company's to hire.

 

[blue collar]

If BaRack would help close the immigration flood gates, they would not be here for company's to hire.

Right, so it's NOT the company's fault for hiring them. Got it.

 

[southwind]

Right, so it's NOT the company's fault for hiring them. Got it.

Guess you still don't get it! If they weren't here to begin with, it'd be kinda hard for a company to hire them. Like I said, blame your Leader for lost American jobs, on American soil.
 
Next!

 

[Kev3188]

thats not flexibility. Even if it is you have to be a special kind of stupid to keep that flexibility when a company has stations with 40-50 flights that are worked by DGS. Flexibility doesn't do anyone any good when your at home jobless.

+1
 

All it takes is one management change, and I think it'll happen if the president of Delta becomes CEO, and we are back to Ron Allens plan of DGSing the hubs below wing.

I think this is closer that a lot of people want to admit. It might not be in one fell swoop, but rather a little bit at a time, and always accompanied by a good news story to drown it out.
 

The more contractors the better is their tag line.

Don't you mean "valued business partners?"

(sarcasm, of course)
 

 
 

I hear the excuse of returning DL M/L rampers to contracted stations as being too expensive, what a crock, when they know darn well that when they decide to open any stations to BW (ramp) employees 50% will be Ready Reserve (no benefits, restricted hours worked yearly) and 50% will be divided between Full Time and part time employees at WHATEVER ratio Delta so desires. 
 
It wasn't to long ago that an airline making tens of millions in profit was cause for celebration, and we were fighting tooth and nail to put that one passengers butt on our aircraft seat (all while competing against a dozen or more airlines back in the early Eighties). 
 
They told Congress that less competition was better, they got what they wanted, what excuse do they have now, 4 major airlines, a couple of strong players less than half the size of the legacies.
 
If Anderson wants to expand the brand, he should start by getting more D E L T A mainline ramp employees in stations that have the flights to warrant them.

Amen.
 
 

Right, so it's NOT the company's fault for hiring them. Got it.

You're clearly not listening to enough AM talk radio...

 

[WorldTraveler]

I hear the excuse of returning DL M/L rampers to contracted stations as being too expensive, what a crock, when they know darn well that when they decide to open any stations to BW (ramp) employees 50% will be Ready Reserve (no benefits, restricted hours worked yearly) and 50% will be divided between Full Time and part time employees at WHATEVER ratio Delta so desires. 
 
It wasn't to long ago that an airline making tens of millions in profit was cause for celebration, and we were fighting tooth and nail to put that one passengers butt on our aircraft seat (all while competing against a dozen or more airlines back in the early Eighties). 
 
They told Congress that less competition was better, they got what they wanted, what excuse do they have now, 4 major airlines, a couple of strong players less than half the size of the legacies.
 
If Anderson wants to expand the brand, he should start by getting more D E L T A mainline ramp employees in stations that have the flights to warrant them.

and yet DL's competitors - all of whom have unionized ramp - are eliminating locations where the ramp is worked by their own employees.

it would dramatically help your argument if AA, UA and WN were increasing the number of stations where their own employees work the ramp but that isn't happening.

Hard to expect DL to raise the bar with your arguments for unions when unionized carriers aren't doing it.

AA's labor cost is going to increase because of PMUS employees were, some how, paid less than what AA was getting in most work groups. This is something Parker knew would happen and is okay with it happening. AA is well below their peers for pay in every work group. Your little "fact" is completely pointless. 
 
thats not flexibility. Even if it is you have to be a special kind of stupid to keep that flexibility when a company has stations with 40-50 flights that are worked by DGS. Flexibility doesn't do anyone any good when your at home jobless.  
 
All it takes is one management change, and I think it'll happen if the president of Delta becomes CEO, and we are back to Ron Allens plan of DGSing the hubs below wing. That could happen, has come very close to happening before (well it did happen, Dallas did go DGS on the ramp) tomorrow if Richard wanted to. Couldn't happen at AA or UA. 
 
If only Delta thought that way. 
 
The more contractors the better is their tag line. 
 
With all this mainline growth WT keeps talking about though you'd think they would be bringing in guys everyday. How many jobs does Delta have open in Atlanta? none. Now if those 717s were getting overhauls done in-house i bet they would be hiring people. Not much mainline growth when your outsourcing as much as you can........

if you'd like to talk about BK, the simple fact is that a smaller percentage of DL employees lost their jobs in Bk than any other airline from 9/11 until each carrier's BK except AA... and we haven't seen the effect of AA yet.

AA maintenance did have a higher percentage of in-house maintenance but they are outsourcing most of the maintenance on their new aircraft so the number of mechanics is bound to go down over time. It is hardly consolation to argue that AA mechanics are gaining overhauls on aircraft that the company intends to replace with new aircraft.

And the reason why AA's labor costs is going up is NOT just because US employees were underpaid; AA's own employees are receiving pay raises in return for their support of the merger.

Let's see what the cost of the new labor agreements that AA is announcing are. if there is no increase in costs, then you seriously have to wonder what the unions accomplished. if there is no loss of jobs, then AA will continually to be grossly overstaffed.

IF, as is expected, AA's unions did gain some pay raises in return for less job security, then the likely result is that AA's labor costs will go up in exchange for fewer jobs and the ability for the company to integrate labor.

The notion that AA accepted higher pay for existing workers while maintaining jobs while the labor unions achieved both is incompatible wth long term financial viability for AA.

The proof will be in the results and the chances are very high that AA is exchanging higher labor costs for the ability to peacefully integrate their workforces - something UA did not do - but the end result is likely that AA and UA will both lose a significant chunk of their cost competitiveness with other carriers.

The best part of this industry is that everything happens in such a public way that everyone eventually knows exactly what happened

 

[700UW]

AA and US are adding stations and headcount, so you are spreading misinformation once again.

 

[700UW]

And AA is not outsourcing the new planes maintenance.

 

[WorldTraveler]

AA and US are adding stations and headcount, so you are spreading misinformation once again.

AA most certainly removed dozens of cities from their maintenance. The fact that they added a few stations back as a result of the merger hardly changes the outsourcing that AA did.

Where are the overhauls for the 787s going to be done? Airbus narrowbodies?

 

[swamt]

Looks like the twins are piping in on this...

 

[WorldTraveler]

perhaps you can tell us who will be doing overhaul maintenance on AA's 787 and 320 family fleet.

of course overhaul maintenance is not exactly a topic you want to discuss since WN has the highest rate of maintenance outsourcing among the big 4.

It is no surprise you want to sweep the discussion under the rug.

tell us also what WN wants for PT and outsourced ramp as well...

these are real issues.... when people here complain about what DL is doing, it is absolutely relevant to be talking about what other carriers are doing.

If unions can't move the ball forward at the carriers where they exist, the notion that they can do it at DL is even more fanciful.

 

[southwind]

AA and US are adding stations and headcount, so you are spreading misinformation once again.

Pot!   Meet Kettle!