US Pilots Labor Discussion-Aug 5 to 12-KEEP ON TOPIC

[USA320Pilot]

Crzipilot,

Crzipilot said: "Oh by the way....your little charts a bs, and a 2 yr delay to upgrade?"

USA320Pilot comments: The Merger Committee contracted an outside consultant by the name of Rikk Salamat to publish a report(s) on the Upgrade Delay and Economic Loss Due to the Nicolau Award, which is now being used by USAPA.

It's not my report or findings, it's Salamat's report for the Union's Merger Committee that indicates the longest East pilot upgrade delay for those on the property and employed when the merger was consumated was 2 years, with hundreds of East pilot Captain upgrade delays even less.

Crzpilot, in early 2007 US Airways provided the ALPA Joint Negotiating Committee (JNC) their joint contract pay rate increase opening offer. This was called the Kirby Proposal and provided East pilots a 17% and West pilots a 3% pay raise along with the same percent increase for DC Plan retirement contributions. In their May 8, 2009 Update Leonidas said, "Captain (Jack) Stephan did recall a conversation he had with company negotiators that the company would be amenable to a 7-10% pay increase (beyond the Kirby Proposal) for everyone in order to get a joint contract" in his sworn testimony at the Addington trial.

From May 3, 2007, the day the Nicolau Opinion & Award was released, to June 1, 2009 based on current pay rates and 90-pay hours per month a US Airways East Narrowbody Captain has lost $84,150, an East Narrowbody First Officer, $56,925, and West Narrowbody Captain $42,078, and a West Narrowbody First Officer $34,650 in unrecoverable wages by not accepting the Nicolau Award and agreeing to contract improvements offered by the Company. And, if the Joint Negotiating Committee had reached a new contract agreement in May 2007 that implemented the Nicolau Award the lowest seniority East pilot on the property at the time of the merger would have earned more than $57,000 in additonal pay and retirement benefits, which is greater than the additional two-year upgrade delay according to the Merger Committee's report that USAPA possesses.

Regards,

USA320Pilot

 

[ROACLT]

Crzipilot,

Crzipilot said: "Oh by the way....your little charts a bs, and a 2 yr delay to upgrade?"

USA320Pilot comments: The Merger Committee contracted an outside consultant by the name of Rikk Salamat to publish a report(s) on the Upgrade Delay and Economic Loss Due to the Nicolau Award, which is now being used by USAPA.

It's not my report or findings, it's Salamat's report for the Union's Merger Committee that indicates the longest East pilot upgrade delay for those on the property and employed when the merger was consumated was 2 years, with hundreds of East pilot Captain upgrade delays even less.

Crzpilot, in early 2007 US Airways provided the ALPA Joint Negotiating Committee (JNC) their joint contract pay rate increase opening offer. This was called the Kirby Proposal and provided East pilots a 17% and West pilots a 3% pay raise along with the same percent increase for DC Plan retirement contributions. In their May 8, 2009 Update Leonidas said, "Captain (Jack) Stephan did recall a conversation he had with company negotiators that the company would be amenable to a 7-10% pay increase (beyond the Kirby Proposal) for everyone in order to get a joint contract" in his sworn testimony at the Addington trial.

From May 3, 2007, the day the Nicolau Opinion & Award was released, to June 1, 2009 based on current pay rates and 90-pay hours per month a US Airways East Narrowbody Captain has lost $84,150, an East Narrowbody First Officer, $56,925, and West Narrowbody Captain $42,078, and a West Narrowbody First Officer $34,650 in unrecoverable wages by not accepting the Nicolau Award and agreeing to contract improvements offered by the Company. And, if the Joint Negotiating Committee had reached a new contract agreement in May 2007 that implemented the Nicolau Award the lowest seniority East pilot on the property at the time of the merger would have earned more than $57,000 in additonal pay and retirement benefits, which is greater than the additional two-year upgrade delay according to the Merger Committee's report that USAPA possesses.

Regards,

USA320Pilot

How may either side have upgraded since that report? 0 There have been downgrades and furloughs as nothing can be based off snapshots. Is that delay now 4 years or 6 years, how much more would the downgrades have caused the East pilots under Nicalou, how many more years if the airline remains stagnant? How about the additional 175 East pilots that would have been furloughed or downgraded in lieu of West pilots under a single list over the last 2 years? 100% for some, 50% for those forced back to the E190. The company has never put an economic proposal for rates other than the Kirby one on the table. If they were serious they would, anthing else is speculation. What would it cost in delays if a subsequent merger took place with Nicalou as a starting point? Would 2 years now become never, since consolidation always follows merger. Figures lie and liars figure. People see through your BS and anyone that would trust Kirsch or ALPA report on this mess would need their head examined.

 

[Piedmont1984]

Crzipilot,



It's not my report or findings, it's Salamat's report for the Union's Merger Committee that indicates the longest East pilot upgrade delay for those on the property and employed when the merger was consumated was 2 years, with hundreds of East pilot Captain upgrade delays even less.


From May 3, 2007, the day the Nicolau Opinion & Award was released, to June 1, 2009 based on current pay rates and 90-pay hours per month a US Airways East Narrowbody Captain has lost $84,150, an East Narrowbody First Officer, $56,925, and West Narrowbody Captain $42,078, and a West Narrowbody First Officer $34,650 in unrecoverable wages by not accepting the Nicolau Award and agreeing to contract improvements offered by the Company. And, if the Joint Negotiating Committee had reached a new contract agreement in May 2007 that implemented the Nicolau Award the lowest seniority East pilot on the property at the time of the merger would have earned more than $57,000 in additonal pay and retirement benefits, which is greater than the additional two-year upgrade delay according to the Merger Committee's report that USAPA possesses.

Regards,

USA320Pilot

I am very skeptical about the 2 year delay number. Does the Salamat Report reflect stagnation, furlough, or the change in retirement age? I am sure both of us has shared the cockpit with someone only 2 years junior to us - and who has waited for a chance to upgrade for much longer. Theory versus reality.

As to your other point - I don't fly 90 hours per month. And if all of us flew only what we were contractually required to fly, we wouldn't have pilots on furlough and we would be voting on a tentative contract far more attractive than the Kirby proposal by now.

 

[cactusboy53]

Maybe they'll just appeal to Judge Wake so that he can attempt the rewrite MORE labor laws. Hey, what's a few more?

:huh: :huh:
OH BROTHER! Are there any of you East board regulars that even BOTHER to read the original complaint, the transcripts, the decision and the remedy??

Are you so bent out of shape that DOH was NOT in ALPA Merger policy AND you couldn't legally FORCE it on the AWA pilot group that you simply regress to name calling and innuendo?

How can a professional arbitrator, two pilot neutrals, ALPA (finally & begrudgingly), a respected federal judge, and nine impartial jurors be that wrong?

TO THOSE EAST PILOTS THAT ARE "LURKERS" & MEMBERS IN GOOD STANDING AT USAPA: You are being led down a very dark path. USAPA has lost the DFR lawsuit. While an appeal is pending (ask yourself why the West pilot group would NOT stand in the way of the expedited appeal process), USAPA is required to negotiated a JOINT contract in good faith. Further, there is a damages trial for the DFR lawsuit in the not to distant future. Take a wild guess who will be assessed for those damage penalties (if the case is won)?? Be vocal and demand transparency and accountability NOW.

 

[USA320Pilot]

The amount of time a pilot works is a personal choice and has a minimum and maximum number per the contract. As far as the Salamat report I simply provided facts not speculation, wild ### rumors, or emptional comments.

Regards,

USA320Pilot

 

[skyflyr69]

In the current economic situation the gov. would never release a union hell bent on self destruction lose to destroy an airline and all the money invested in said airline. No they would just let them labor on under a substandard contract until they either gained wisdom or retired.

you never heard of the AFA official "Chaos" campaign? Well ,, it is underway and the clock is ticking.
01-01-10. tic tic tic .......

 

[prechilill]

PineyBob, you should look at the pay tables for any major airline, including the East and West pilots. You will find that the majority of pilot compensation is determined by the aircraft they fly and the seat they occupy and not their longevity. This is key difference between pilots and almost any other labor group and is the cause for much of the friction in pilot seniority integrations. If you are a mechanic, your pay is solely determined by longevity, therefore a longevity based integration does nothing to change your compensation. For pilots, a ten-year wide body captain makes very much more than a 20 year narrow body first officer. In fact, both pay scales involved didn't recognize any pay benefit beyond 16 years of seniority.

ALPA merger policy used to say "integrate by date of hire, and use conditions and restrictions to maintain career expectations, avoid windfalls, preserve jobs, etc." In 1986 Northwest and Republic merged. Northwest had a larger, younger pilot group that flew a lot of wide bodies, including 747's and Republic was an older pilot group that flew all narrow bodies, primarily DC-9's. ALPA merger policy was followed and a date of hire integration took place but there were 18 years of conditions and restrictions that resulted in 26 separate arbitrations to resolve conflicts. It was a disaster.

In 1991, ALPA merger policy changed and basically went to "merge it however you want but maintain career expectations, avoid windfalls, etc. etc." While you seem to paint this as some nefarious scheme by ALPA National, it was simply a recognition that date of hire doesn't work because it doesn't fit our compensation structure. No matter how many times you mashed that square peg, it wouldn't fit into a round hole.

Since ALPA merger policy changed there have been 4 major integrations, all decided by arbitration. They were all done with some type of ratio, mostly a status and category approach. Interestingly, US Air/Trump Shuttle was the first. The US Air pilots seemed to accept that outcome with no qualms since it favored them.

Somehow, you think allowing the parties to work out their own integration, or have a neutral arbitrator do it, is a vast conspiracy. If you could at least say who they are conspiring against and who they are protecting it would help in your accusation. Delta/Northwest was completed as a status and category ratio so which airline was the ALPA victim and which was the ALPA co-conspirator. Both were major airlines before the merger.

In the Airways, Am West merger, Am West was the smaller airline that had been in ALPA a shorter period of time than Airways. Airways had a pilot elected as one of the most senior officers at National. So shouldn't the America West pilots have been the victim?

The bottom line is that there is no conspiracy, ALPA doesn't care how lists are merged, they just want them merged without fighting each other. While almost all pilot seniority integrations have been contentious, everyone has managed to act like adults at the conclusion up until the East pilots popped a cork and started channeling their inner children. Their behavior is shameful. Guess what, the courts agree.

Four different aribtrations have all produced a similar result. You can believe the entire world is part of this conspiracy, or you can just look at the stupid pay charts and figure out what is the most logical conclusion. Your choice. Maybe we could work space aliens in there to complete your theory.

Oscar, your post is very well written. It is a beautiful response to Bob's myopic understanding of pilot seniority and the true reason this integration has been a challenge for the company and the AWA pilots. Fortunately, we have a legal system which (eventually) rights the wrongs committed by others and soon we have resolution to this mess. Although there are individuals who will never put this behind them, most of what you see on here regarding wildcat strikes and threatened cooperation issues on the flight deck between east and west comes from individuals with anger problems and isolated to this webboard. As an outsider you would not know this, there is a pilot message board called Pilotloop which was set up for the effective communication between east and west. The only catch, you have to post under your name. About three or four east pilots post on Pilotloop regularly and few more have started showing up recently and sharing their views in a mature, professional manner. One east guy was permanently banned because he couldn't control himself (this individual is also a USAPA officer), but you do not see the logical void apparent in some posters' opinions around here.
We are close to getting this thing behind us, fortunately because of the actions of Leonidas, the courts and a select group of mature east pilots who now realize what "final and binding" means. Again, great post.

 

[skyflyr69]

"While "hearsay" may not be admissable in court it is indeed the fuel that makes the internet run. Take away hearsay and this board would be a blank page."

That would be a godsend. W.W. a320pilot. D.

 

[cleardirect]

you never heard of the AFA official "Chaos" campaign? Well ,, it is underway and the clock is ticking.
01-01-10. tic tic tic .......

Chaos is a self help tactic invented by the AFA. Unless usapa has been released by the NMB for self help, chaos would be an illegal job action.

So you go ahead. Please go ahead and do this. 01-01-10 means nothing.

I can predict with certainty that if you more than one idiot tries chaos. The company will be in court so fast the heat of PHX will not touch them. They will demand an injunction against usapa to stop an illegal job action.

But please feel free. Darwin can use a few more examples. If anyone is so stupid as to think this is a good idea they have no business flying airplanes.

I am sure that an illegal job action would help the snap back arbitration a lot. NOT!

 

[nic4us]

you never heard of the AFA official "Chaos" campaign? Well ,, it is underway and the clock is ticking.
01-01-10. tic tic tic .......

Yeah...and someone has made some nice stickers that say 01-01-10 Cash or CHAOS WWDD. Appears they are showing up in PHX jetways.

Three questions.

First, since you are not going to get any snapback or re-instatement of pay, how do you intend to seek self help prior to being released from negotiations? If I am not mistaken that would be an illegal job action, and subject USAPA to very heavy damages.

Second, how do you east folks want to split up the 35 million? Seems West members get to vote, and are very interested in the method that would upset the most ardent USAPA supporters. I think most West votes are going choice B.

Third, WWDD? Why We're Darn Dumb? Who Would Demand Damages? West Will Defend Dave? Oh, I know, it must be What Would Doug Do?
Answere: see first three interpretations.

 

[cleardirect]

Both parties agreed to abide by the arbitrators ruling. For reasons known only to the founding members of USAPA they decided to wiggle out of the agreement. It also appears to me that AOL and certain HP pilots fired what could be called the first shot in this war and that in my opinion was ill advised as it caused the East Group to circle the wagons

IMO USAPA's legal counsel stinks on ice. Do the phrase" Useless as teets on a bul" have any meaning. Judge Wake decided to take the most narrow interpretation of the laws associated with the situation and that hurt USAPA's chances. Lee Seham is alledgedly an experienced Aviation Labor attorney and he as near as I can tell presented a pizz poor case and got his arse handed to him.

USAPA passed the point of no return months ago and as a result have painted themselves into a rather precarious position. IMO Everything from this point onward will be decided by a judge and/or jury. As long as that remains the case the wound will NEVER heal and US Airways will forever be two airlines until every last member of the current list is retired or leaves.

Not to argue with you,but. You pointed out the first shot. The east pilots decided to wiggle out of binding arbitration. During the first part of the merger the east pilots insulted the west with calls of rookie and commuter pilot.

The east pilolts pulled out of joint contract talks. The east pilots attempted to staple the west with DOH. usapa files the first law suit with a poorly designed RICO suit.

So I would say the it was the east pilots that fired the first, second and probably the third shot.

 

[cactusboy53]

Prechilli;
I never said I wasn't myopic. If I was hired on October 7th, 1972, the number of days, weeks, months and years I'm employed constitutes my Seniority. That is the basic definition of Seniority. Or as you prefer the myopic version.

Sure, Bob…as it pertains to the OLD US Air, you are correct. As it pertains to the NEW and improved US Airways I am afraid that you are incorrect.

So I do seem some common ground and thus a basis for settlement except for one thing. Both sides have become so entrenched and married to their positions that they're unwilling to lose face in order to foster an agreement.

Bob, it is settled. It is done. It is finished. Further delay will only cost you and your co-workers wage and contract improvements. Also, don’t forget the very real possibility of financial damages in the damages trial later next year.

So the challenge is to find a way for the West and the East pilots come to a meeting of the minds that allows the leadership to save face and for the Pilot group to gain a much deserved raise.

Here’s the meeting of the minds. It is settled. It is done. It is finished.

I get flaming pizzed when I see bright people, many of whom have safely flown me all over these United States getting the screw job they're getting. I'm angrier still that much of the wounds to their wallets are self inflicted.

I am truly sorry for the path that your co-workers have had to bear. Would there be a screw job, had the furloughees not been able to return to a job at the new US Air?? So many of these people believe they saved America West Airlines, when that couldn’t be further from the truth.

Will you and your co-workers continue down this path at all costs?? You spend my money on a legal team that has failed to produce a DOH list, and attempt to do away with a seniority list that was derived by a fair process (admittedly your perception is that it was not fair, adjudicated by a senile old man, and further cemented by a questionable court process). You spend my money on a legal team that attempted to sue a group of pilots for various RICO accusations, that was dismissed WITH PREJUDICE.

At what time to you stop this nonsense, and group together to finally get a contract for ALL of the US Airways pilots??

If you could outlaw Egos the world might be a better place. At least US would be a better place.

Bob, ego has nothing to do with it. The formation of USAPA & the attempts to trample the AWA pilot group has galvanized this group like no other event. I happen to think that a little ego is a good thing. Can you imagine where the United States of America would be if John Adams (the second president, not the US Airways pilot ) had no ego??

Ready, Fire, Aim!!

 

[luvn737s]

Prechilli,

I never said I wasn't myopic. If I was hired on October 7th, 1972, the number of days, weeks, months and years I'm employed constitutes my Seniority. That is the basic definition of Seniority. Or as you prefer the myopic version.

If I worl for a company 35 years and you work 34 then you're below me.

If you are at a pre-merged airline, then you are correct (sort of). Integrating two airlines into one new one is the problem.

And what you are speaking of is longevity, not seniority. What constitutes your seniority is your relative position on a list. If you're the top guy, you're the most senior. If you're the bottom guy, you're the most junior, regardless of how many years you've been around. If circumstances at one airline cause you to be junior for many years, that should not be remedied through a merger and at the expense of the other airline's pilots. Therefore, you have pilots with 20 years at one airline next to folks with 5 years from the other airline on a combined list at the newly merged airline.

The "20 years" and "5 years" expressions are red herrings which distract you from viewing the newly combined list as autonmous from the past. The former airlines had career advantages and disadvantages which were expressed in the respective seniority vs longevity lists. The newly combined airline list seeks to start afresh and share both the oppportuntites and the perils inherent in the merger. Nicolau (and the neutrals)saw this and determined that a slotted list achieved these goals.

Constantly looking backward never gets you anywhere (and keeping the old name doesn't help things either).

 

[hp_fa]

First, Piney Bob is a customer and has been, primarily on the East. He generally was unhappy, pre-merger, with the HP product. He made friends with many East crew members, CSR's and phone agents at their DM desk. He is, like me, not directly involved in the results.

Second, the appeal has been expedited. It will be heard the second week in December. A ruling will follow. I am ** guessing ** in late February or March. However I don't think that will end it because I expect a Writ of Certiorari to be filed by the losing party and it will likely be late summer or early fall before the SCOTUS would decide to accept or reject that Writ. I can all but guarantee that ** if ** the SCOTUS accepts the case it will be to address any perceived discrepancies between the various Courts of Appeal.

FWIW, and as an example, the SCOTUS will be meeting in September to review thousands Writs and will likely grant only 50-100 of them.

Wikipedia says the following.

A minimum of four of the nine Justices are required to grant a writ of certiorari, referred to as the "rule of four." The court denies the vast majority of petitions and thus leaves the decision of the lower court to stand without review; it takes roughly 80 to 150 cases each term. In the most recently-concluded term, for example, 8,241 petitions were filed, with a grant rate of approximately 1.1%,[7] Cases on the paid certiorari docket are substantially more likely to be granted than those on the in forma pauperis docket.[8] The Supreme Court is generally careful to choose only cases over which the Court has jurisdiction and which the Court considers sufficiently important, such as cases involving deep constitutional questions, to merit the use of its limited resources.

I hope that helps a bit.

 

[boeingplt]

Second, how do you east folks want to split up the 35 million? Seems West members get to vote, and are very interested in the method that would upset the most ardent USAPA supporters. I think most West votes are going choice B.

Most West votes??? What most of your 133 votes??? Knock yourself out killer! If method A doesn't pass 70 - 30 I'll eat my hat.