2014 Fleet Service Discussion

[P. REZ]

prez, is the association recognized by the nmb and/or certified as a collective bargaining agent by the nmb for any AA/Us employees? Yes or No

To the audience, it is 100% guaranteed that the nmb doesnt recognize the association and wont recognize it until it wins an election. Prez has refused to answer the question.

Tim,
 
What part of the "Alliance is signed and a legal document" do you not understand? I can't spell it out any clearer without going into territory I am not at liberty to discuss because management reads this thread.
 
P. Rez

 

[NYer]

Still waiting for you to show us how their Section 6 CBA is concessionary.

It seems obvious that you believe an workforce that doesn't afford medical coverage for the families of their part timers is somehow not concessionary. May it's the fact they never had a cabin service department, never had a cargo department, or never had a catering department for their union workers is not concessionary. It could be the fact that their managers are allowed to assist in the work that doesn't make it concessionary. Wait. I know, it's the fact they never had a defined pension plan that doesn't make it concessionary.

I guess to you if they make a good hourly wage that other stuff they don't have means nothing.

OK. You win. They fact they don't have any of those items means they couldn't negotiate them away. So if you never had anything, then it means you never lost it. SMH.

 

[700UW]

WN has catering, Air Freight and their cleaners are AMFA.
 
They have a the highest 401k match.
 
And by the way, you still havent answered how the IAM/WN CSA and RES CBA is concessionary.
 
All you mentioned are ramp or maintenance functions in your previous post./

 

[ograc]

Speaking of scope and Southwest-- To my knowledge,  WN and US are the ONLY carriers left that still maintain contractual "scope language" regarding flight-line delivery, and recovery of in-flight commissary items (Catering)... AA contracts this function out...
 
If that language were to be lost, you would see several hundred Fleet Service jobs disappear on the US side!

Scope language and job protection has deterioated pretty bad in the industry, for the represented, when the scope language in the US CBA now leads the industry. It should be apparent to all where the battle front focus is for these airlines. Until union leadership, NCs and the membership take a firm stand on this issue union represented jobs will continue to disappear! The agreement negotiated at UA and the subsequent endorsement by the Grand Lodge leads me to believe we're being led into a buzzsaw! Countless jobs are, and will continue to be, lost at UA as a result of the negotiated and ratified CBA. Will the end result be the same at US?  

 

[BLUTO]

Tim,
 
What part of the "Alliance is signed and a legal document" do you not understand? I can't spell it out any clearer without going into territory I am not at liberty to discuss because management reads this thread.
 
P. Rez

HE UNDRSTAND
ONLY WUT AH
FEED HIM!

 

[WeAAsles]

WN has catering, Air Freight and their cleaners are AMFA.
 
They have a the highest 401k match.
 
And by the way, you still havent answered how the IAM/WN CSA and RES CBA is concessionary.
 
All you mentioned are ramp or maintenance functions in your previous post./

Hasn't someone here mentioned numerous times how this is a FSC thread. Why are other groups being talked about?

Just from reading this conversation I don't think you can grasp the concept of what "concession" means? I could even post the dictionary definition and I think it would still be spun.

But if we should compare ourselves to ALL union jobs out there. Why don't we make as much as Tom Hanks who is a SAG member does? Or maybe Police, Fireman, or Professional Athletes? Why don't I make what a Professional Athlete makes?

You also don't understand the point of "Total Value Compensation" You also don't understand the difference between how SWA operates and those associated costs in comparison to a Legacy carrier either.

Actually I've seen your posts and I know you do understand but much like Tim who's agenda has been figured out, yours I haven't quite pegged yet?

 

[WeAAsles]

As it faced rising labor costs, the Dallas-based Southwest added seats to planes, raised baggage fees at its AirTran unit and curbed flying to unprofitable markets to improve results. Southwest is also retiring older Boeing 737 jets in its fleet to help reduce maintenance costs.
 
Southwest is the only major U.S. airline that has not been restructured in bankruptcy. Even so, Kelly said Southwest was still a lower-cost carrier compared with major rivals though he conceded that rising fuel prices have eaten into that cost advantage.
 
"We've had to raise our fares simply because fuel prices are so much higher today in the billions of dollars a year compared to where they used to be," Kelly said. "But we still have significant cost advantages -- even including that -- relative to the legacy carriers."

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/southwest-looks-to-grow-where-rival-airlines-downsize/


DUH!!!!!!

 

[ograc]

Ohhh... don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it WONT happen, but...  as I discussed with WeAAsles... AA has A/F and US has CAT... either way... losing one, and gaining another would be cost neutral to the Company!
 
Where is that damned crystal ball...

Careful ROA... the crystal ball may respond "Harmonize". Goodbye AA Frieght jobs. Goodbye US Catering jobs. For your vote; here is a couple more dollars per hour of blood money. The same strategy has worked in the past. The initial attack has been on outsourcing jobs in outline stations. The next wave will be on outsourcing jobs in hubs and larger stations. Example: Catering and Cargo for the combined carrier. Outsourcing will soon be coming to the members in the hubs. The very members who believe this agenda and issue doesn't affect them. It's called merger "synergies". Directly related to "Harmonizing". The issue of members bumping to the ramp will not trump greed and the smell of money or retro pay. What will change the course though, is a NC, with the support of the district and Grand Lodge, to refuse to agree to such destructive language even being brought back to the membership for ratification. Up to now this has been noticeably lacking. 

 

[roabilly]

Careful ROA... the crystal ball may respond "Harmonize". Goodbye AA Frieght jobs. Goodbye US Catering jobs. For your vote; here is a couple more dollars per hour of blood money. The same strategy has worked in the past. The initial attack has been on outsourcing jobs in outline stations. The next wave will be on outsourcing jobs in hubs and larger stations. Example: Catering and Cargo for the combined carrier. Outsourcing will soon be coming to the members in the hubs. The very members who believe this agenda and issue doesn't affect them. It's called merger "synergies". Directly related to "Harmonizing". The issue of members bumping to the ramp will not trump greed and the smell of money or retro pay. What will change the course though, is a NC, with the support of the district and Grand Lodge, to refuse to agree to such destructive language even being brought back to the membership for ratification. Up to now this has been noticeably lacking. 

Cargo,
 
I concur, my reference to Catering was made in the context of Section 6 talks proceeding now... not harmonization and synergy assessments to be reviewed in Joint Talks (JCBA) at a future date. I'm pretty sure Catering will be in place as long as we remain in 6. In the JCBA, the Company may very well toss the concept on the table to outsource it for a wage increase. It depends on how you crunch the numbers, but realistically, it expensive to outsource Catering, so I'm not sure how diligent they would be going forward.
 
Actually, that is why I think the Company has held the line, and insisted on Transition Talks in lieu if 6. They would prefer to save money by keeping everyone at BK compensation until they get to the JCBA. Of course... in the JCBA they are banking on obtaining the very cost savings you have just mentioned with harmonization.

 

[Tim Nelson]

Tim,
 
What part of the "Alliance is signed and a legal document" do you not understand? I can't spell it out any clearer without going into territory I am not at liberty to discuss because management reads this thread.
 
P. Rez

Thanks for the answer Prez
 
To the audience:
Signed and legal isn't what I asked him.  The question is, why does Prez intentionally avoid the question "Is the Association certified and recognized by the NMB as a collective bargaining agent to represent a group of workers?  The fact that he is on the negotiation team or a sitting officer does not restrict his liberties one bit from being honest about a question that is fairly basic and well known to anyone who understands even basic NMB recognition.   The 100% inexcapable truth, although inconvenient to Prez, is that the association simply is not recognized by the NMB to currently represent anyone as Prez well knows.  The Association can represent workers if it won a vote, and that is exactly what its intentions are. I ask Prez, just to show you that there is so much bs in the room that something is clearly wrong.  The primary argument that has been dishonest to you is that the Association represents workers and can have the TWU MOU voided out simply by switching organizations.  While that is ridiculous, that incorrect path avoids single carrier discussion and builds the strawman opinion that the TWU and an arbitrator are free to violate the TWU contract and/or its resolution. 
 
Ask yourself, why does our rep purposely avoid a simple yes or no question?   Myself, rockit, John John, and maybe ograc know [and maybe more who have been around] that NO organization, including the association, can be certified to represent a group of workers unless there was a prior vote. 

 

[NYer]

Ohhh... don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it WONT happen, but...  as I discussed with WeAAsles... AA has A/F and US has CAT... either way... losing one, and gaining another would be cost neutral to the Company!
 
Where is that damned crystal ball...

 
In my opinion, since Cargo is a direct revenue generating function it may have the best chance to survive...although the goal should be to save all of them.
 
In the BK, we were able to save Cargo because the arguments were made that BK is a process to eliminate what is causing debt or losses. The Cargo Division was already a profit center with the current Labor structure and cuts was not "necessary" to keep the airline afloat.

 

[NYer]

WN has catering, Air Freight and their cleaners are AMFA.
 
They have a the highest 401k match.
 
And by the way, you still havent answered how the IAM/WN CSA and RES CBA is concessionary.
 
All you mentioned are ramp or maintenance functions in your previous post./

 
Their deficiencies have been mentioned, several times. If you believe they have the best contract based in pay rates and a 401K Match....then that's your basis of what a good contract is....No one will changes your mind....Others of us include everything within their contract and if we have to give things up in order to have the same deal as they do, then by definition that's not the best CBA. They may have the best pay rates, but they do not have the best CBA.

 

[NYer]

Compare this to your TWU/AA CBA or the IAM/US CBA for fleet.
 
http://twu555.org/portals/12/PDFfiles/2008-201120CBA.pdf
 
And by the way the TWU negotiated WN CBA for fleet also has a 20% cap on Part-time, and the same no coverage for family medical, yet you criticize the IAM for that, yet the TWU has the same language.

 
You can't, by definition, have the best CBA if it is cheaper than other CBA's....And if you can, please PLEASE, explain how.
 
"While Southwest Airlines historically has enjoyed lower labor costs than its larger U.S. competitors, that has changed as other carriers cut pay and benefits and achieved increases in productivity as they passed through bankruptcy court.
 
"According to the Airline Data Project at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, Southwest’s labor costs per available seat mile were 2.99 cents in 2000."
 
"That figure gave it a significant advantage over American with labor costs of 4.17 cents per available seat mile; Delta, 3.72 cents; United, 4.16 cents; and US Airways, 5.34 cents." --Source, Dallas News
 
Since all the bankruptcies, the major airlines have lowered their costs to meet the same level as Southwest. How is it then, that you continue to point towards the bottom of the unionized industry as a basis to say they have the best CBA.

 

[NYer]

My last word on this SWA silliness. Here is another way to see how SWA can do more with less and that correlates to their work rules and productivity
 
Airline                    Planes                    Departures                     Employees     
 
AA-mainline            627                            3300                              80,000
 
US-main & reg.       620                            3000                              45,000
 
SWA-mainline         680                            3600                              32,000
 
At AA we don't typically work Eagle flights, so those numbers were not included. At US, they do work some of the US Express flights so all those numbers were included. As you can clearly see, SWA has more flights than either AA or US, but they also have a substantially smaller employee footprint.
 
If you have less employees doing more then you total costs are kept down and you can pay those that you do have a higher wage while your entire Labor costs is held down by other means, such as lower medical insurance costs, no pension obligations and thousands of positions that just don't exist.

 

[mike33]

deleter by mike33