2014 Fleet Service Discussion

[WeAAsles]

WeAAsles,
I'm glad you shed some light on the dynamics that led up to the TA reached and subsequent ratification by the membership at UA. These dynamics do not exist concerning the US Fleet contract negotiations. Unfortunately, AH and the company has witnessed what was agreed to and ratified, concerning scope, with the UA contract and want the same. Negotiations are all about give and take. What is the NC willing to give up in order to improve scope? Additionally, if they sacrifice improvements in wage, benefits, vacation/sick accrual and other Articles how can they reasonably expect a ratification of any such agreement? IMO... this is the situation the NC finds themselves in. Candidates for the oppostion can claim they could get the whole pie. Easier said than done. Then again; that is the advantage opposition candidates have in an election. In May of 2014 they can promise anything. 6 years ago the same candidate promised change by voting Canale and his team out. The agenda of the company will not change. The amount of leverage the union has to defend the membership from the comany's agenda will not change. Regardless of who is elected. This is the same enemy the Canale Team faced. It will be the same enemy faced in future negotiations. The rest is hollow promises and political grandstanding. It's us (the membership) against them (the company). With that being said... I don't believe it would be in the best interest of the US members to "pull the rug out" from beneath the existing leadership team and the NC. We are at a critical juncture. A time where we should be demonstrating solidarity behind the elected leadership and the appointed NC. Let's wait and see. in the meantime... LOCK and LOAD!  

ograc I wanted to come back to what you wrote here and elaborate a little further on it. I think the dynamics of your negotiations with the company are very different then what you've been dealing with since the inception of USair. USair was built through past mergers and acquisitions of other carriers that were not a part of the major airlines that existed at the time. The cost structure to exist and survive was not one that could warrant you making the same as legacy international carriers employees. It's been a building process to get to where we are now into consolidation. Taking out many other little carriers to become one huge megalith. 

You guys have a particular history with your dealings with the company rep AH that absolutely could put a sour taste in your mouths. Bankruptcies have decimated you and the industry but in the end you guys were still at the bottom compared to AA, UAL and DAL (Legacy Carriers) even after their own BK's. Your company as a standalone even though they have been showing profits honestly may not have survived long term had the merger not come into existence? Somewhere down the line the competitors would have squeezed them to death and the next downturn would probably have been devastating. (Not to say I ever liked AA's standalone plan and neither did the creditors) But that's why DP has been searching for a dance partner for so long. Don't forget your old ticker symbol LCC (Low Cost Carrier) There was a reason that was used.

What I'm trying to say is now the gains you guys have been waiting a long time for are finally coming. Everything is in place to make those gains a reality. Are they going to come in one swift movement though? No. They're going to have to come in two phases. There has to be room to work up from since the company is going to have to do this again with us involved. We're basically all still moving the furniture into the big house that we're all going to share together.

  http://www.usairways.com/en-US/aboutus/pressroom/history/chronology.html

 

 

[Tim Nelson]

What I'm referring to Tim is it's easy to campaign that you will get it all for the membership if elected. You know these campaign promises are unrealistic and unachievable. Although you want to sell the membership on "no retreat" in negotiations and you will get it all; you know you are being misleading. By the way... what does AGC, Trustee and Vice President elections have to do with current contract negotiations? The NC is appointed by the District President is it not? Shouldn't the focus, concerning the AGC positions, be on Grienance Committee / Shop Steward experience? Of which your running mates have none. Is this about you or the betterment of the membership? 

The betterment of the membership starts in negotiations, of which AGC's aren't just clay pigeons.  At any rate, less than two years ago you put yourself on a ballot and were handing out cards to get rid of these guys.  We have been in negotiations for 3 years, yet, you wanted to change out those in negotiations.  I'm not blaming you, but it's interesting how you flipped like a cheeseburger, once advocating that we needed progress, but then after you lost, you change your tune. Was that all about you?
 
I supported Delaney and gave him a chance.  But after he exploited the membership, he was no longer entitled to my vote or support.  But you flipped towards those you ran agasint and claimed were not in the best interest of the membership.  The fact that you ran for a district position shows that you are politically motivated on the District level. Have they offered you something?

 

[WeAAsles]

Why did our negotiation team only ask for $23 and now flirting with $22?  I thought their idea was to incorporate more scope and that is why they were only asking for $23?
 
Asking to be put into another bankrupt agreement is a joke.  We have the worst wage and the worst days off combo and the present scope is terrible except when compared to bankrupt agreements or the new United agreement that these guys just signed.  This leadership group doesn't know what it is doing and is a true embarrassment to labor. What a mess.  A company that projects to make $2 billion this year and we have our fingers up our asses asking for $22 now?  How much lower will these guys go is what will be really scary if they are allowed to fool us twice.

Tim I understand that you are running a campaign and part of the campaign has to have areas where you can set yourself apart from those you are running against. But when it comes to the livelihoods of 13000 members in the combined FSC pool your personal campaign has to be less important then improving our positions.

Since the decision you guys make also affects me with the Sept 2015 wage adjuster and future gains under a JCBA that's why I feel the need to stick my nose in where otherwise I wouldn't since it wouldn't be any of my business without the merger.

Perhaps you do have an inside track on negotiations or you are listening to rumors, or making things up as you go along? Personally I think your negotiators know very well what they're doing and are hopefully going to come out soon with a TA that steps forward with the necessary improvements for phase 1 of the process.

As far as UAL that has already been explained by myself and others on this forum. The other thing I will point out is that I watched that IAM Stakeholders FB page and found the UAL members who were participating on there to be incredibly knowledgeable about their TA's and dissecting the information about it. If they found TA2 to be unacceptable they would have rejected it as they did TA1. They did not. UAL was going to absolutely whether you wish to believe it or not close those stations as they had the ability to with or without the acceptance of the TA. It's my firm belief had the members not accepted they would still be negotiating and the process for station closures would be proceeding with NO recourse for those affected. Reality sometimes does bite.

If you are correct and the station staffing part of your SCOPE has been tabled to be dealt with in phase 2, the issue will be seeing what other improvements have been negotiated under the FULL TA? When and or if that comes out in the next few weeks it will be your members who have to decide if it passes muster to be moved forward?

Like I said in the other post. I haven't moved my furniture in yet but the truck is loaded and ready to move. So what that means is at least on this forum I do intend to offer my two cents as to how I think we should paint the walls. It may have been a shotgun wedding but we are moving in holding hands Tim.

 

[Tim Nelson]

Tim I understand that you are running a campaign and part of the campaign has to have areas where you can set yourself apart from those you are running against. But when it comes to the livelihoods of 13000 members in the combined FSC pool your personal campaign has to be less important then improving our positions.
Since the decision you guys make also affects me with the Sept 2015 wage adjuster and future gains under a JCBA that's why I feel the need to stick my nose in where otherwise I wouldn't since it wouldn't be any of my business without the merger.
Perhaps you do have an inside track on negotiations or you are listening to rumors, or making things up as you go along? Personally I think your negotiators know very well what they're doing and are hopefully going to come out soon with a TA that steps forward with the necessary improvements for phase 1 of the process.
As far as UAL that has already been explained by myself and others on this forum. The other thing I will point out is that I watched that IAM Stakeholders FB page and found the UAL members who were participating on there to be incredibly knowledgeable about their TA's and dissecting the information about it. If they found TA2 to be unacceptable they would have rejected it as they did TA1. They did not. UAL was going to absolutely whether you wish to believe it or not close those stations as they had the ability to with or without the acceptance of the TA. It's my firm belief had the members not accepted they would still be negotiating and the process for station closures would be proceeding with NO recourse for those affected. Reality sometimes does bite.
If you are correct and the station staffing part of your SCOPE has been tabled to be dealt with in phase 2, the issue will be seeing what other improvements have been negotiated under the FULL TA? When and or if that comes out in the next few weeks it will be your members who have to decide if it passes muster to be moved forward?
Like I said in the other post. I haven't moved my furniture in yet but the truck is loaded and ready to move. So what that means is at least on this forum I do intend to offer my two cents as to how I think we should paint the walls. It may have been a shotgun wedding but we are moving in holding hands Tim.

You have every right to want to protect our craft.
Regarding negotiations, there was movement on days off and retro. Ive got some calls in but i havent heard about the talks last week yet. Obviously its up to the membership but cinderella dates and retro wont increase our leverage in joint talks. Most of the wage improvements are back loaded. The nc hasnt tabled yhe wage but the company is more receptive to back loading due to the sept 2015 date. I hope politics dont rule the day and force these guys on panic mode just to get something because most from our group (contrary to the politics on this page) are thoroughly upset at the current bunch who havent delivered anything positve in 6 years.

Based on what i know about the negotiations a couple weeks ago, it looks like these guys are going to backload wage but front load some present bleeding with a retro check back to december 9. Even the new "days off' accrual is back loaded and wot have the new accrual rates till 2015.
Imo a true mess but i cant say i didnt expect it. The release is now goosed as well as most of us said it would be.
the membership gets to vote on any proposal presented and that will determine the future course. Imo they ought to have a chance to vote soon, one way or another.

 

[pjirish317]

tim,

Let's revisit your camapign promise's from 2012 shall we. Or at least the one selling point that you tried to get elected on. Giving a portion of your salary up. Are you still going to do that, and have your other US guys, artie and carl do that also. Highly doubtful. You see that's all it was, a campaign promise that would never, NEVER have happened. You try all these things so the members see you as this "knight in shining armor" light, when in reality, your not. Stop trying to sell us that you will automatically be on the NC, you wont and you know it. Neither will artie or carl. It is a very real possibility that the NC stays the same without you. And regardless the outcome in June, you still have my vote for being a member of the JCBA NC. Just so you can prove that you can't deliver what you promise.

 

[WeAAsles]

You have every right to want to protect our craft.
Regarding negotiations, there was movement on days off and retro. Ive got some calls in but i havent heard about the talks last week yet. Obviously its up to the membership but cinderella dates and retro wont increase our leverage in joint talks. Most of the wage improvements are back loaded. The nc hasnt tabled yhe wage but the company is more receptive to back loading due to the sept 2015 date. I hope politics dont rule the day and force these guys on panic mode just to get something because most from our group (contrary to the politics on this page) are thoroughly upset at the current bunch who havent delivered anything positve in 6 years.

Well OK "IF" what you are saying is true about backloading I can understand that actually. Why would the company want to place you at the same rate as us and then we (TWU) could potentially see another $1.00 per hour increase above our 2.1% raise in 2015? And if you were included in the wage adjuster I could understand it even more. That scenario could potentially take away any emphasis on us wanting to negotiate until our contract expires at least as far as our base wages are concerned. The company is going to want carrots on the stick for us to come to the table just as much as we're going to want carrots on the stick to make them come.

I also think I clearly explained why "no one" would have been able to deliver on anything substantial for as you say the last 6 years. The dynamics and the synergies for improvements just didn't exist until now. Again a clear business reality that no amount of emotion or changing of the guard could overcome.

Based on what i know about the negotiations a couple weeks ago, it looks like these guys are going to backload wage but front load some present bleeding with a retro check back to december 9. Even the new "days off' accrual is back loaded and wot have the new accrual rates till 2015.
Imo a true mess but i cant say i didnt expect it. The release is now goosed as well as most of us said it would be.

What true mess? If you are included in the wage adjuster as you're alluding to in a year and 4 months that appears to be a $3.50 to almost $4.00 increase from where you are now. Not considering any possible other improvements in your standalone CBA before any JCBA is negotiated.

the membership gets to vote on any proposal presented and that will determine the future course. Imo they ought to have a chance to vote soon, one way or another.

That depends on three parties. The IAM, the Company and the NMB.

 

[roabilly]

tim,

Let's revisit your camapign promise's from 2012 shall we. Or at least the one selling point that you tried to get elected on. Giving a portion of your salary up. Are you still going to do that, and have your other US guys, artie and carl do that also. Highly doubtful. You see that's all it was, a campaign promise that would never, NEVER have happened. You try all these things so the members see you as this "knight in shining armor" light, when in reality, your not. Stop trying to sell us that you will automatically be on the NC, you wont and you know it. Neither will artie or carl. It is a very real possibility that the NC stays the same without you. And regardless the outcome in June, you still have my vote for being a member of the JCBA NC. Just so you can prove that you can't deliver what you promise.

PJ,
 
I’m in full agreement (to a point), "if” Nelson were to be allowed to participate in negotiations, especially the JCBA talks, his bravado would be revealed as false. My only concern would be that he would set the rest of the committee up for criticism, and failure by dissenting, while simultaneously demanding unrealistic compensation, scope, and benefits.  
 
With Tim’s skill as a SPIN-DOCTOR, after any such JCBA T/A was released to the Membership, he would claim that “he” was the only member to actually have stuck to his guns, knowing full well that the Company would NEVER agree to his preposterous demands. Essentially, he would “set-up” the rest of the committee, and frame them as being corrupt, inept, and in bed with the company...
 
I can envision, that he would use this as political fodder against the IAM Leadership in any, and all future elections. For that reason, I don’t think it would be prudent to have Nelson in the JCBA discussions!

 

[WeAAsles]

You have every right to want to protect our craft.
Regarding negotiations, there was movement on days off and retro. Ive got some calls in but i havent heard about the talks last week yet. Obviously its up to the membership but cinderella dates and retro wont increase our leverage in joint talks. Most of the wage improvements are back loaded. The nc hasnt tabled yhe wage but the company is more receptive to back loading due to the sept 2015 date. I hope politics dont rule the day and force these guys on panic mode just to get something because most from our group (contrary to the politics on this page) are thoroughly upset at the current bunch who havent delivered anything positve in 6 years.

Based on what i know about the negotiations a couple weeks ago, it looks like these guys are going to backload wage but front load some present bleeding with a retro check back to december 9. Even the new "days off' accrual is back loaded and wot have the new accrual rates till 2015.
Imo a true mess but i cant say i didnt expect it. The release is now goosed as well as most of us said it would be.
the membership gets to vote on any proposal presented and that will determine the future course. Imo they ought to have a chance to vote soon, one way or another.

Much of this at the moment is merely hearsay anyway. Everyone likes to allude to having an inside man that's providing them the skinny that others aren't privy to. Tim you like to impart a lot of "Trigger Words" meant to inflame the emotions that can support your campaign, but those words are just a sleight of hand as they have no bearing on the present realities when there is no documentation to base them off of. Personally I think you need to be a little more subtle with there usage as attempting to hammer them in comes across as a little desperate. You should approach your endeavor with a more feet up, seemingly relaxed approach if you ask me.

Again when and or if something materializes in the next few weeks I'm sure there will be plenty of time for those of us who understand it to disseminate it for the readers if they're interested. The boards on here will probably light up like a Christmas tree. I'm looking forward to seeing it.

 

[Tim Nelson]

tim,

Let's revisit your camapign promise's from 2012 shall we. Or at least the one selling point that you tried to get elected on. Giving a portion of your salary up. Are you still going to do that, and have your other US guys, artie and carl do that also. Highly doubtful. You see that's all it was, a campaign promise that would never, NEVER have happened. You try all these things so the members see you as this "knight in shining armor" light, when in reality, your not. Stop trying to sell us that you will automatically be on the NC, you wont and you know it. Neither will artie or carl. It is a very real possibility that the NC stays the same without you. And regardless the outcome in June, you still have my vote for being a member of the JCBA NC. Just so you can prove that you can't deliver what you promise.

I haven't sold any of that but I am confident in cleaning up the current mess created in the US AIRWAYS talks.  All AGC's aren't necessarily in negotiations, but as a very active AGC [if elected], I can assure you sir that I will be 'thoroughly engaged' and won't want any NC to embarrass me, our craft, or the members I may represent. And right now, sorry to say, an embarrassment it is by them waiving off scope increases and pinching down on wage with some back loaded babble. A thorough embarrassment by anyones standards.  They should stop their BS and bring out a TA and offer a rejection on such crap to allow the membership to at least see it and vote one way or the other. My hunch is that they will still provide empty updates claiming such terms as "Progress".  LMAO.   I think it is best for the membership to change then it will allow me to finally clean up their mess.

 

[Tim Nelson]

PJ,
 
I’m in full agreement (to a point), "if” Nelson were to be allowed to participate in negotiations, especially the JCBA talks, his bravado would be revealed as false. My only concern would be that he would set the rest of the committee up for criticism, and failure by dissenting, while simultaneously demanding unrealistic compensation, scope, and benefits.  
 
With Tim’s skill as a SPIN-DOCTOR, after any such JCBA T/A was released to the Membership, he would claim that “he” was the only member to actually have stuck to his guns, knowing full well that the Company would NEVER agree to his preposterous demands. Essentially, he would “set-up” the rest of the committee, and frame them as being corrupt, inept, and in bed with the company...
 
I can envision, that he would use this as political fodder against the IAM Leadership in any, and all future elections. For that reason, I don’t think it would be prudent to have Nelson in the JCBA discussions!

I can assure you that if the NC brought out what it already has moved on with the company, that US AIRWAYS members won't need any spin doctor and that I'd be surprised if even CLT produced a 10% vote for them in June. At any rate, me and you completely disagree. I happen to think that increasing scope is not a preposterous demand but should be the first item checked off prior to days off.  Unfortunately, that has not happened sir.  I fully understand that those of you who are retired, and others who just lack a year or two until retirement don't give a rats ass about scope and would accept Cinderella dates, but for those of us who have to worry about Joint talks, we certainly could use more leverage by gaining real scope that doesn't vanish with a drop dead date. 
 
Delaney is good about producing Bull #### agreements that say "Well,hell, we got a drop dead date but we will be in negotiations with a joint contract prior to that so we will have a joint contract that will address this later".  All BS.  Cinderella dates will encourage management to delay any Joint contract, just like the 2% pay raise after 18 months encouraged management to just shelve negotiations last time.

 

[WeAAsles]

I haven't sold any of that but I am confident in cleaning up the current mess created in the US AIRWAYS talks.  All AGC's aren't necessarily in negotiations, but as a very active AGC [if elected], I can assure you sir that I will be 'thoroughly engaged' and won't want any NC to embarrass me, our craft, or the members I may represent. And right now, sorry to say, an embarrassment it is by them waiving off scope increases and pinching down on wage with some back loaded babble. A thorough embarrassment by anyones standards.  They should stop their BS and bring out a TA and offer a rejection on such crap to allow the membership to at least see it and vote one way or the other. My hunch is that they will still provide empty updates claiming such terms as "Progress".  LMAO.   I think it is best for the membership to change then it will allow me to finally clean up their mess.

TRIGGER WORDS:

"cleaning up the current mess"
"NC to embarrass me, our craft, or the members I may represent"
"pinching down"
"back loaded babble"
"stop their BS"
"rejection on such crap"
"empty updates"
"LMAO"
"allow me to finally clean up their mess"

You see readers. These are all a part of the sleight of hand meant to illicit an emotional response from you. They aren't grounded in any sort of reality since at least as of right now you don't even have anything to look at on your table yet. An intelligent mind sees through all of this though and should understand why these tactics are being used.

The last one is the best though. It's the one directly asking for your vote in the Mr Smith goes to Washington approach. Everyone and everything you see is corrupt but if you send me in I can fix it for you. It's all sweets with no protein.

Be smart. Ask your candidates to show you their record and what their experience is and then make your choice. Those choices may affect you personally one day.

 

[mike33]

I haven't sold any of that but I am confident in cleaning up the current mess created in the US AIRWAYS talks.  All AGC's aren't necessarily in negotiations, but as a very active AGC [if elected], I can assure you sir that I will be 'thoroughly engaged' and won't want any NC to embarrass me, our craft, or the members I may represent. And right now, sorry to say, an embarrassment it is by them waiving off scope increases and pinching down on wage with some back loaded babble. A thorough embarrassment by anyones standards.  They should stop their BS and bring out a TA and offer a rejection on such crap to allow the membership to at least see it and vote one way or the other. My hunch is that they will still provide empty updates claiming such terms as "Progress".  LMAO.   I think it is best for the membership to change then it will allow me to finally clean up their mess.

  Sometmes i feel like I'm battling your attitude more than the companies selfish business sense. Is there anyone else in your   camp that can shed more light on your ticket?.....You sound like a one-man-band, but that is a lot of credit to take on.  I know, I know, you can handle it, but thats not the point. I tend to agree with ROA that you on the JCBA committee may be more of a distraction than anything.

 

[WeAAsles]

And to anyone who may think otherwise. I have nothing against Tim. I just am tired of the career politicians who keep wanting to kiss my baby when I never had one. Don't sell me snake oil. Prove to me what you are capable of doing that will benefit myself and the people I work side by side with.

When it's all done I'll be sitting under a palm tree somewhere drinking a fruity beverage in retirement and I'll have a mean and vicious dog that will be sitting next to me just in case any politicians meander near.

 

[Tim Nelson]

TRIGGER WORDS:

"cleaning up the current mess"
"NC to embarrass me, our craft, or the members I may represent"
"pinching down"
"back loaded babble"
"stop their BS"
"rejection on such crap"
"empty updates"
"LMAO"
"allow me to finally clean up their mess"

You see readers. These are all a part of the sleight of hand meant to illicit an emotional response from you. They aren't grounded in any sort of reality since at least as of right now you don't even have anything to look at on your table yet. An intelligent mind sees through all of this though and should understand why these tactics are being used.

The last one is the best though. It's the one directly asking for your vote in the Mr Smith goes to Washington approach. Everyone and everything you see is corrupt but if you send me in I can fix it for you. It's all sweets with no protein.

Be smart. Ask your candidates to show you their record and what their experience is and then make your choice. Those choices may affect you personally one day.

I can't disagree that it is always nice that a candidate should have accomplishments with their experience.  And if there were any accomplishments over 6 years, then certainly now is the time to share them.  I have been asking Roabilly to show us JUST ONE.  LOL.   They can't, so I showed their accomplishments which are; waiving the attendance policy grievance,  the 2008 US AIRWAYS agreement, The Hawaiian airline agreement, and the United Agreement. 
 
I have showed my acomplishments and I'm plenty proud of them.  If it was accomplishments then nobody on Team Delaney would stand a chance to win any station. That's for sure.

 

[mike33]

And to anyone who may think otherwise. I have nothing against Tim. I just am tired of the career politicians who keep wanting to kiss my baby when I never had one. Don't sell me snake oil. Prove to me what you are capable of doing that will benefit myself and the people I work side by side with.

When it's all done I'll be sitting under a palm tree somewhere drinking a fruity beverage in retirement and I'll have a mean and vicious dog that will be sitting next to me just in case any politicians meander near.

  I don't think anyone has " That " much against Tim. You just happen to explain it a little better is all.  Arrogance and prodding can be a bad thing when you are suppose to be working for me. Makes me wonder bad things when the **** hits the fan. When that happens i need a negotiator not an antagonizer on my side.