2014 Pilot Discussion

[luvthe9]

It is too late for the west, they had their chance.  USAPA and APA will agree on a list with conditions, restrictions .

Not too sure, if they quit all the lawsuits and nonsense maybe they would be able to get in on the next bid or two and we can all try to put this mess behind us.

 

[Claxon]

Not too sure, if they quit all the lawsuits and nonsense maybe they would be able to get in on the next bid or two and we can all try to put this mess behind us.

History has shown that the west pilots never had the ability to ascertain their actual relevancy, this will never change.

 

[supercruiser]

 
I've asked that question on occasion, and no one (including the Bid Closing Committee) seems to know the answer.  Usually, I get told: "I think it's within 12 months of mandatory retirement, but I'm not sure.  It may be 6 months."
 
It's interesting that the company provides a "Legend" at the bottom of every page of the bid that defines the N and the DN, but they never bother to define ++.  Must be a State Secret.

It's definitely 12 months or less to go til mandatory retirement. You could send an email to resource planning to confirm if you want.

 

[algflyr]

I think everyone agrees the pay on the 190 is way too low... I do however find this to be an interesting fact from the latest bid...
 
The junior 190 Captain has a seniority number of 3399 (A 2013 new-hire)... The JUNIOR 190 FO on the bid award has a seniority number of 3606 (most junior on the property as of the bid closing) While there are 30 open 190 FO slots below this pilot, it's amazing the most junior FO on property is only 207 numbers away from holding a Captain bid... (and there are 115 E-190 FO slots)...

 

[Keroseneuser]

From talking to a bunch of f/o's it is the commute that nobody wants to do.    Since the 190 Capt pays the same as right seat on the bus and less than the widebodies,  the only ones willing to bid it (that are not newhires)are commuting anyhow due to not living near any base,  or just have a burning desire to be called "Captain"   🙂
 
I have not looked myself but I have been told that the trip pairings on the 190 are especially brutal on commuters.  Early show and late returns. 

 

[algflyr]

From talking to a bunch of f/o's it is the commute that nobody wants to do.    Since the 190 Capt pays the same as right seat on the bus and less than the widebodies,  the only ones willing to bid it (that are not newhires)are commuting anyhow due to not living near any base,  or just have a burning desire to be called "Captain"   🙂
 
I have not looked myself but I have been told that the trip pairings on the 190 are especially brutal on commuters.  Early show and late returns. 

 
I agree the trips on the 190 probably suck. (I haven't looked lately either, but the 190 only goes to a limited number of destinations)
 
I'm not trying to justify the low pay on the 190, but your numbers for pay are incorrect...
 
The 2nd year pay for a 190 Captain is currently $113.91/hr. 2nd year pay for the small Airbus is $83.76/hr (over a $30/hr difference) . The 767 is $90.29/hr. The A-330 is $106.40/hr. So actually, the 190 Captain position is the highest pay a pilot can get in his second year on this property... 
 
Other than the A-330 (which passes the 190 CA pay in the 3rd year), the pay in the 190 left seat is more than the Airbus and the 767 for several years...

 

[Keroseneuser]

Pay wise I was speaking of the pre 2005 hired guys.  Sorry for the confusion.
 
The 190 capt. is going so junior due to the 1000+ top of scale f/o's that are not bidding it  (or very close to TOS).     When it was based in CLT the TOS guys were flying it,  but when it got kicked up to PHL only that all dried up.  I know 2 very senior f/o's that went back to right seat rather than follow the plane up to PHL, No telling how many more than those two did the same thing.
 
If it were based in CLT I doubt any of the post 2005 guys could get anywhere close to holding it.

 

[A320 Driver]

Not too sure, if they quit all the lawsuits and nonsense maybe they would be able to get in on the next bid or two and we can all try to put this mess behind us.

On this we can agree. It's time for the West to stop trying to cash in the lottery ticket and participate in the growth and opportunities. Furlough is NOT an issue. Can't have what was not earned.

 

[end_of_alpa]

On this we can agree. It's time for the West to stop trying to cash in the lottery ticket and participate in the growth and opportunities. Furlough is NOT an issue. Can't have what was not earned.

Proverb of the day:

"You can't lead a West a$$ to water and make him drink."

 

[nycbusdriver]

It's definitely 12 months or less to go til mandatory retirement. You could send an email to resource planning to confirm if you want.

 
Thanks for the info.  Maybe I should send an email to resource planning to suggest they add the ++ to the legend at the bottom of each page.  Or, would that be too much of a burden?
 
Or, maybe even ask resource planning to put their email address at the bottom of the bid, in case some mere crew dog has a question.  Yes, that WOULD be too much to ask.

 

[nycbusdriver]

I think everyone agrees the pay on the 190 is way too low... I do however find this to be an interesting fact from the latest bid...
 
The junior 190 Captain has a seniority number of 3399 (A 2013 new-hire)... The JUNIOR 190 FO on the bid award has a seniority number of 3606 (most junior on the property as of the bid closing) While there are 30 open 190 FO slots below this pilot, it's amazing the most junior FO on property is only 207 numbers away from holding a Captain bid... (and there are 115 E-190 FO slots)...

 
Decades ago, the UAL pilots negotiated a contract they called "Blue Skies."  It was a groundbreaking effort in that they put aside the old contracts and started from scratch with totally new ideas and concepts.  As it turned out, I believe, it was a disaster.
 
However, one philosophy that was incorporated in "Blue Skies" that I think should be the rule is that: "No captain at the airline will be paid less than any first officer at the airline."  That would mean a second-year E190 captain would be getting a bit more per hour than our 12+ year A330 first officers.  Of course, if that were indeed the case, we would not be seeing any second year captains on the E190.  And that's the point.
 
Not that these second year captains are any less qualified than those who have been hanging out at the company long enough to be A330 first officers.  It's a matter of perspective and respect for the position of pilot-in-command.

 

[Piedmont1984]

It's definitely 12 months or less to go til mandatory retirement. You could send an email to resource planning to confirm if you want.

Thanks for the info. One year till retirement is a little imprecise for bidding purposes since any 12 month period may have multiple permanent bids. Instead of a double + next to a name, actual months to go until retirement would be much more helpful once the one year threshold is crossed.

And to think that before the internet/software/computer age, Piedmont was able to publish a practice bid. I guess the company doesn't have the technology :-(

 

[snapthis]

This place stinks of hypocrisy and beer. Meanwhile, the debate goes on outside your little party. Outside of the bar, I don't see much sympathy for Usapians. Just disgust.

So....it's OK to place East furloughees ahead of West pilots who had a job in 2005, yet worry about being placed below AA furloughs. Try telling a West pilot furloughed after the merger only to see East furloughees return to the property he held a lottery ticket. Since when was a lottery ticket a pinkslip?

How convenient....If I were AA, I would not trust an Usapian by no means. They are as sick as they come.

Meanwhile, the debate rages on in cyberspace:

The Drizzle
Joined APC: Apr 2013
Position: A320 FO
Posts: 310
We will be sold, if at all possible, to get back the lost years of those before us. With USAPAs deft skills I imagine I'll wind up below AA furloughs who had less time on property than I do at US.

SilverandSore
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Position: FO
I've pretty much expected that, my personal theory is that USAPA and APA want to give furlough credits to each other to put both of them further up the list in regards to the west (Phx) guys. A little pat on the back and boom son, there you are!


ShyGuy
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2005
Position: A Bus Driver
Posts: 2,980
You should ask USAPA that question. Funny how this argument is being used now that it's AA and US. Back when the same thing in reverse was true for US Airways (carrier with pilot layoffs and carrier bankrupt twice) versus working for a carrier making a little money and moving up the seniority list (AWA).... well the Nic was "unfair"

ShyGuy
Joined APC: Dec 2005
Position: A Bus Driver
Posts: 2,980
The irony is rich here. Same could be said for AWA guys back in 2005, with their quick movement and upgrades versus US Airway's junior late '80s DOH Captains. Nicolau slotted them accordingly. How'd that work out? Nic slotted some 2000+ DOH AWA guys with US guys hired in the early 90s. US East screamed bloody murder and rejected the Nic, threw out ALPA, and voted in USAPA to keep Nic off property. Now you want a favorable slotting against AA?

Now that the table is turned, it's ironic to hear the change in tune that was the basis for establishing USAPA and kicking out the Nic award. Before the arbitrator looks at that he's going to be scratching his head when you present a East list and a West list. Career expectation cuts both ways. One could argue LOA93 would have continued until enough East retired to bring the numbers of AWA+US-newhires to outnumber original East. Maybe then they could have voted out USAPA.

morecowbell
New Hire
Joined APC: Sep 2008
Posts: 3
You've got to be kidding me. I'm not sure who you are or what gear your pulling, but that was why the Arbitrator came up with the NIC like he did. USAIR was dead....days from DEAD. NO CAREER EXPECTATIONS. SCUMBAGS. Yet all those east that were furloughed eventually got to come back while the "west stagnated and actually furloughed west pilots. So I hope to god your not a 3rd lister....

eaglefly
Hysterical with worry
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Position: Face forward/Sphincter shut
Posts: 3,671

Quote:
Originally Posted by kingairip
You insult USAPA, as you like to do (they're an easy target after all), but what he's arguing for is exactly what got USAPA so hissed off. (Stapled furloughs, that is...among other things, of course.) So, I fixed it for you...no charge!

My statement wasn't about what ONE arbitration provided, but about whether what he's demanding is standard in ALL. It isn't. The Usapian leadership demanded a lot more than that one issue though, they wanted it ALL. They refused to negotiate off their gauntlet of demands and arrogantly expected an arbitrator to reward their intransigence.

They were wrong. No matter........on USAPA there's always a way and an opportunity to renig on what you agreed to and it's happening all over again with APA and the MOU. The Usapians have scooted back to USAPA in their saucers and are hard at work as we speak attempting to creatively reinterpret the MOU USAPA-style.

I'm sure when they scoot back down to Earth to file their request for injunction with the court, it will be a hoot to read the specifics. In the mean time, we should keep a watchful eye to the starry night sky looking for the tell-tale glow of their saucers so we can get warning of when that will occur.

 

[AWE Dog]

Snap, Is that the best you can come up with? Total internet Garbage. DOH C&R's

 

[snapthis]

Snap, Is that the best you can come up with? Total internet Garbage. DOH C&R's

You are crazy if you think that's going to happen.

Have another round. I'll drop a coin in the jukebox.

http://slack-time.com/music-video-5816-billy-currington-people-are-crazy