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Excuses, we all have them, the aroma theme is consistent.
 
"U.S. passenger airlines’ operational performance remained strong in the first half of 2013, showing substantial improvement from the past decade "despite numerous thunderstorm and weather events, as well as air traffic control delays resulting from federal budget sequestration."
 
April, 2013 excuses.
 
"The nation's third-largest airline said Thursday that it would've earned $8 million excluding costs of its bankruptcy restructuring."
 
"American stumbled on that running start this week, as a computer-systems outage grounded all of its U.S. departures for several hours on Tuesday, stranding tens of thousands of passengers. The airline has been trying to recover since, but cancellations, including those likely caused by bad weather, continued on Thursday."
 
"Horton apologized to customers in a YouTube video and blamed......"
 
How refreshing it would be for an airline to announce one day, that quarterly earnings were impacted by management indiscretions.  This is as likely to happen as having your Labrador return with a swine after you shot at a goose in flight.
 
Time For USAPA to Really Think About Our Most Pressing Problem…Risk Versus Reward: Part II

I have spent some amount of time thinking about US Airways pilot's current ISL conundrum. This post is a little long, but I encourage each of our forum’s members to read this information, think about the “risk versus reward”, and then discuss these thoughts with other pilots.

An East pilot asked: “The whole post (Demagoguery Works) is a great read. It may even insinuate I am one of the "Recognition Failures", and that is fine. If most of the post is true, and I feel most of it is. I think for the ones who know the "Real Deal" one of the mentioned names is probably done more damage to this pilot group than any other pilot. He has done so under the banner of fighting for your seniority. My Question is. Do I lay down and die, nothing I can do. Do I stay on the side lines and plead innocence or do I get in the fight even against all odds?”

Another East pilot's comments: I believe USAPA needs to fight and we need to “get in the fight even against all odds.” But, before USAPA can fight the union has to define the fight, look at the odds of success, and provide all US Airways pilots, East and West, the best possible approach in the boxing ring.

But, to fight just to fight because you don’t like the situation is a strategy that time and time again has miserably failed us. How many arbitrations and lawsuits have the UELs, whether with ALPA or USAPA, has the union has won because they wanted to fight? Has this UEL strategy gotten a little old and tired?

What are the realistic odds the NMB is going to rule that a single arbitrator can conduct a M-B SLI arbitration before SCC when APA and AAG correctly argued USAPA’s idea violates our contract? Has this UEL strategy gotten a little old and tired?

It is very important to accept Pat Szymanski successfully argued in Judge Silver’s court that a segment of a union cannot negotiate seniority and this can only be done by the authorized collective bargaining agent. Now USAPA is forced to argue other side of this argument in D.C federal court in its suit and APA/AAG’s countersuit, which is a legally unsupportable argument – not to mention hypocritical.

Typically I provide exact quotes to build my argument and then use phrases like “I believe’ or “In my Opinion” to separate fact from opinion. In the interest of brevity I’m going to write from my heart because I too agree we should fight, but the fight should be to obtain the best possible JCBA and ISL, period. As a bright informed pilot pointed out nothing else matters. 

BACKGROUND

In the APA Proposed Protocol Agreement, if APA is the only duly designated representative, APA will be able to designate Merger Committee members to represent (for seniority integration purposes) pilots of a pre-merger seniority list in an arbitration similar in nature to the M-B protocol. Once the committees have been designated the committees shall fill their own vacancies.

This does two things. One it allows APA, NOT USAPA, to designate Merger Committee members. Two, it might allow APA to designate a Merger Committee from the pre-merger America West pilot group to represent the pre-merger America West pilots separately from the East pilots.

USAPA would like to have the authority over the Merger Committee so they can seed the committee with Date of Hire hardliners or some other Demagogues. USAPA would be disinclined to seat any members from the pre-merger America West seniority list either on the USAPA Merger Committee or a separate America West committee.

Of course the USAPA argument is that America West is not separately represented by their own union and would have to be represented by USAPA. And, of course APA, AAG and the courts agree with that view and will apply that view to the situation once USAPA is no longer the duly designated representative for pre-merger (this latest merger) US Airways pilots to prevent USAPA from being a political party to the process.

Here is why USAPA is now forced to argue both sides of the argument... which is legally unsupportable. 

Furthermore, USAPA has a political problem. USAPA is the minority representative among the pilots it is duty bound to represent. When you consider the West pilots combined with about the top 1500 pilots on the East and the bottom 500 new hires, USAPA represents less than half of the pilots on this property. 

Combine USAPA’s minority status with the fact that USAPA has failed to provide either a contract or a seniority list to its members in its entire existence and you see a useless organization (some will argue that USAPA brought us the MOU, but short memories forget that USAPA turned it down before they tried to convince the pilots to turn it down). It was the line pilot who voted to bring the MOU to the property even after USAPA held road shows to convince pilots to turn it down. USAPA should see that vote as clear evidence that this pilot group really wants a contract.) 

LOOKING FORWARD

In spite of APA’s tortured history with seniority integration, APA is offering the US Airways pilots arbitration, which mimics the M-B process per their proposed Protocol Agreement, which is attached to this email. This is decidedly different than past APA behavior and should be seen as APA exercising it duty to fairly represent its pilots (the former US Airways pilots will be members of APA and will legally need to be fairly represented).

That process will be managed by a panel of three arbitrators and will give all of the pilots an equal bite at the apple. Certainly the pre-merger APA Merger Committee members will present a seniority scheme which they deem favorable to the pilots they represent. So will the pre-merger East pilots. And, if the West pilots seat a merger committee, they, too, will argue a scheme which they deem favorable to the pilots they represent. All of this will be presided over by a panel of arbitrators.

The question is “is this fair?” One might argue that it would be “more fair” to the minority pilots that USAPA represents if USAPA could choose a hard line Merger Committee and prevent the West from speaking to the arbitrator. Anyone who would argue such a position should be strongly reminded of how we got where we are in the first place. Our hard line representatives at ALPA argued an untenable Date of Hire seniority scheme to an arbitrator and lost. In the wake of that loss, those same hard line representatives migrated to USAPA and have systematically destroyed our ability to collectively bargain or protect ourselves. This cost this pilot group many hundreds of millions of dollars in lost wages and retirement opportunities, not to mention life style benefits like vacation and a new bidding system. 

Add to this that USAPA has never abided by any arbitration. Knowing this, would you like to offer USAPA another opportunity to ignore yet another arbitration? 

It seems that APA is willing to use the M-B Protocol even though it is not legally bound to do so. This seems fair. Other carriers have sidestepped the M-B process (Southwest) when it suited their self-serving agendas. APA seems to be offering a better deal than the AirTran pilots got.

USAPA has its leg caught in a trap of their own design – I believe it’s either time to start chewing or agree to APA and AAG’s proposed Protocol Agreement with a 3-way ISL arbitration. If not..then we can expect to receive a court order permitting APA to exclusively control the ISL process, if so desired, per the RLA and Judge Silver’s order. Obviously, this could be devastating where we end up with another AA-TWA type of SLI where the US Airways pilot's concerns become our reality. But, at least Dave Ciabattoni could stand up at a union meeting and once again proclaim “I would rather continue with the DOH strategy, lose, and live with the result than change our approach.” Let’s hope USAPA agrees to a 3-way ISL arbitration and drops its complaint or at this point the Nic might seem like a good deal to the East DOH zealots.
 
EastUS1 said:
 
Thanks for the usual chuckles. 😉
 
 
I am impressed at your clairvoyance of the future posters... who knew that the UTC Fudster himself would be along to provide the usual chuckles.  YOU DID!  What stock should I buy?!
 
Chuckles now pretends that USAPA didn't get the MOU and didn't even support the MOU... therefore deserves no credit for the MOU.  That is a boldface lie.  USAPA freaking rolled out the biggest marketing campaign I have ever seen to get us to vote for the MOU with all of the mysteries and flaws.  The glossy pamphlets were presented like gospel tracts...   You would think the MOU was written on gold plates (or maybe stone) the way USAPA went around preaching about the salvation of the MOU.  If USAPA had started baptizing folks it would not have surprised me one bit.  
 
320,
 
Has anyone in your enlightened circle worked out how the American "occupational date" is going to be factored in?  I have asked several reps and merger guys and was ignored by every one of them.
 
For those that don't know, American uses what they call an occupational date for all things that most of use DOH for.  In other words, you get your occupational date when you have finished training and have flown an American Airlines Inc. aircraft.  Just in case anyone East of West is confused, you don't work for AA Inc. you work for US Air Inc. that is a wholly owned subsidiary of AAG.  It shouldn't be hard to get clarification, on this issue, but again nobody in our illustrious union will address it.
Thanks for any info you may be able to share.
 
fr8tmastr said:
320,
 
Has anyone in your enlightened circle worked out how the American "occupational date" is going to be factored in?  I have asked several reps and merger guys and was ignored by every one of them.
 
For those that don't know, American uses what they call an occupational date for all things that most of use DOH for.  In other words, you get your occupational date when you have finished training and have flown an American Airlines Inc. aircraft.  Just in case anyone East of West is confused, you don't work for AA Inc. you work for US Air Inc. that is a wholly owned subsidiary of AAG.  It shouldn't be hard to get clarification, on this issue, but again nobody in our illustrious union will address it.
Thanks for any info you may be able to share.
 
That's how the old (INT-based) Piedmont issued "hire dates."  When you showed up for class, you were not on the payroll.  The stipulation was that you would be hired IF you passed the training.  They housed you (double-occupancy hotel room) and offered a very meager meal stipend while in training (this before your first "real" paycheck of $500/month [$1580 in 2013 dollars] probation salary after successfully training.)
 
When PI merged with US in 1987, our DOH was changed to the day we showed up at training in order to match the way US did it.
 
nycbusdriver said:
 
That's how the old (INT-based) Piedmont issued "hire dates."  When you showed up for class, you were not on the payroll.  The stipulation was that you would be hired IF you passed the training.  They housed you (double-occupancy hotel room) and offered a very meager meal stipend while in training (this before your first "real" paycheck of $500/month [$1580 in 2013 dollars] probation salary after successfully training.)
 
When PI merged with US in 1987, our DOH was changed to the day we showed up at training in order to match the way US did it.
Glad you brought that up.  However, you could only TRULY be hired after your first year of employment was behind you so the company couldn't let you go without cause.  In short, in your first year you could be let go for bad breath.
 
320 your argument frames the question entirely wrong. AMR will be the CBA but not for purposes SLI/ MB. Theses are not inconsistent positions. The West was and is represented by USAPA. The question before Silver was who gets a seat at the table. She got that right from the LEGAL perspective but tried to apply the same logic in the face of the MOU and MB. She may have gotten it right if there was no MB and no MOU and no SLI process.. 
Garbage in garbage out. It really is that simple.
 
NICDOA
NPJB 
 
320, I have spent some amount of time thinking about US Airways pilot's current ISL conundrum.(YEA, we know, you should make better use of your time) which mimics,(just like a blow-up doll) to the minority pilots that USAPA represents, ( BAZINGA, hit it right on, they represent all minorities, ) Now find a hobby or another ridiculous forum, or better yet join the ARMY OF LEADUSVICTIMSOFUNHIREABLES, sorry guess you already did, sorry the tie is not fashionably correct, but whatever! Speakers Square in HYDE PARK would be a good venue for ya! Cheers!
 
USA320Pilot said:
Time For USAPA to Really Think About Our Most Pressing Problem…Risk Versus Reward: Part II

I have spent some amount of time thinking about US Airways pilot's current ISL conundrum. This post is a little long, but I encourage each of our forum’s members to read this information, think about the “risk versus reward”, and then discuss these thoughts with other pilots.

An East pilot asked: “The whole post (Demagoguery Works) is a great read. It may even insinuate I am one of the "Recognition Failures", and that is fine. If most of the post is true, and I feel most of it is. I think for the ones who know the "Real Deal" one of the mentioned names is probably done more damage to this pilot group than any other pilot. He has done so under the banner of fighting for your seniority. My Question is. Do I lay down and die, nothing I can do. Do I stay on the side lines and plead innocence or do I get in the fight even against all odds?”

Another East pilot's comments: I believe USAPA needs to fight and we need to “get in the fight even against all odds.” But, before USAPA can fight the union has to define the fight, look at the odds of success, and provide all US Airways pilots, East and West, the best possible approach in the boxing ring.

But, to fight just to fight because you don’t like the situation is a strategy that time and time again has miserably failed us. How many arbitrations and lawsuits have the UELs, whether with ALPA or USAPA, has the union has won because they wanted to fight? Has this UEL strategy gotten a little old and tired?

What are the realistic odds the NMB is going to rule that a single arbitrator can conduct a M-B SLI arbitration before SCC when APA and AAG correctly argued USAPA’s idea violates our contract? Has this UEL strategy gotten a little old and tired?

It is very important to accept Pat Szymanski successfully argued in Judge Silver’s court that a segment of a union cannot negotiate seniority and this can only be done by the authorized collective bargaining agent. Now USAPA is forced to argue other side of this argument in D.C federal court in its suit and APA/AAG’s countersuit, which is a legally unsupportable argument – not to mention hypocritical.

Typically I provide exact quotes to build my argument and then use phrases like “I believe’ or “In my Opinion” to separate fact from opinion. In the interest of brevity I’m going to write from my heart because I too agree we should fight, but the fight should be to obtain the best possible JCBA and ISL, period. As a bright informed pilot pointed out nothing else matters. 

BACKGROUND

In the APA Proposed Protocol Agreement, if APA is the only duly designated representative, APA will be able to designate Merger Committee members to represent (for seniority integration purposes) pilots of a pre-merger seniority list in an arbitration similar in nature to the M-B protocol. Once the committees have been designated the committees shall fill their own vacancies.

This does two things. One it allows APA, NOT USAPA, to designate Merger Committee members. Two, it might allow APA to designate a Merger Committee from the pre-merger America West pilot group to represent the pre-merger America West pilots separately from the East pilots.

USAPA would like to have the authority over the Merger Committee so they can seed the committee with Date of Hire hardliners or some other Demagogues. USAPA would be disinclined to seat any members from the pre-merger America West seniority list either on the USAPA Merger Committee or a separate America West committee.

Of course the USAPA argument is that America West is not separately represented by their own union and would have to be represented by USAPA. And, of course APA, AAG and the courts agree with that view and will apply that view to the situation once USAPA is no longer the duly designated representative for pre-merger (this latest merger) US Airways pilots to prevent USAPA from being a political party to the process.

Here is why USAPA is now forced to argue both sides of the argument... which is legally unsupportable. 

Furthermore, USAPA has a political problem. USAPA is the minority representative among the pilots it is duty bound to represent. When you consider the West pilots combined with about the top 1500 pilots on the East and the bottom 500 new hires, USAPA represents less than half of the pilots on this property. 

Combine USAPA’s minority status with the fact that USAPA has failed to provide either a contract or a seniority list to its members in its entire existence and you see a useless organization (some will argue that USAPA brought us the MOU, but short memories forget that USAPA turned it down before they tried to convince the pilots to turn it down). It was the line pilot who voted to bring the MOU to the property even after USAPA held road shows to convince pilots to turn it down. USAPA should see that vote as clear evidence that this pilot group really wants a contract.) 

LOOKING FORWARD

In spite of APA’s tortured history with seniority integration, APA is offering the US Airways pilots arbitration, which mimics the M-B process per their proposed Protocol Agreement, which is attached to this email. This is decidedly different than past APA behavior and should be seen as APA exercising it duty to fairly represent its pilots (the former US Airways pilots will be members of APA and will legally need to be fairly represented).

That process will be managed by a panel of three arbitrators and will give all of the pilots an equal bite at the apple. Certainly the pre-merger APA Merger Committee members will present a seniority scheme which they deem favorable to the pilots they represent. So will the pre-merger East pilots. And, if the West pilots seat a merger committee, they, too, will argue a scheme which they deem favorable to the pilots they represent. All of this will be presided over by a panel of arbitrators.

The question is “is this fair?” One might argue that it would be “more fair” to the minority pilots that USAPA represents if USAPA could choose a hard line Merger Committee and prevent the West from speaking to the arbitrator. Anyone who would argue such a position should be strongly reminded of how we got where we are in the first place. Our hard line representatives at ALPA argued an untenable Date of Hire seniority scheme to an arbitrator and lost. In the wake of that loss, those same hard line representatives migrated to USAPA and have systematically destroyed our ability to collectively bargain or protect ourselves. This cost this pilot group many hundreds of millions of dollars in lost wages and retirement opportunities, not to mention life style benefits like vacation and a new bidding system. 

Add to this that USAPA has never abided by any arbitration. Knowing this, would you like to offer USAPA another opportunity to ignore yet another arbitration? 

It seems that APA is willing to use the M-B Protocol even though it is not legally bound to do so. This seems fair. Other carriers have sidestepped the M-B process (Southwest) when it suited their self-serving agendas. APA seems to be offering a better deal than the AirTran pilots got.

USAPA has its leg caught in a trap of their own design – I believe it’s either time to start chewing or agree to APA and AAG’s proposed Protocol Agreement with a 3-way ISL arbitration. If not..then we can expect to receive a court order permitting APA to exclusively control the ISL process, if so desired, per the RLA and Judge Silver’s order. Obviously, this could be devastating where we end up with another AA-TWA type of SLI where the US Airways pilot's concerns become our reality. But, at least Dave Ciabattoni could stand up at a union meeting and once again proclaim “I would rather continue with the DOH strategy, lose, and live with the result than change our approach.” Let’s hope USAPA agrees to a 3-way ISL arbitration and drops its complaint or at this point the Nic might seem like a good deal to the East DOH zealots.
God Chip, USAPA PREVAILED!  You only provide OPINION, from your HEART???!!!????  What kind of irrelevant "crap" is that?  Step away from the keyboard.  If you understood what REALLY happened with Airtran at Southwest...which you FACTUALLY don't even know that it is NOT the same over here, you would KNOW that the ATA seniority integration was agreed to FIRST before they would MERGE.  They didn't really sidestep it, its just that the Airtran pilots didn't take ANY stand.  They approved the deal they were given in order to avoid litigation that they KNEW would have cost them a lot over time.  To them, it wasn't about the principle, it was about the money.  SWA was going to bleed them as a stand alone subsidiary and do to them what AAL is now doing to Envoy.  They would have had a fighting chance under M-B if they stuck with it, they just didn't.
 
As far as DOH zealots go, ANSWER THIS QUESTION:  WHY IS US AIRWAYS PILOTS TIME WORTH LESS THAN APA TIME?  Put another way, if time has no meaning why not hire Republic/Envoy pilots and make them Captains after the first year so the company can pay them 2 year pay over your 12 year pay?
 
WHY CAN'T THE COWARD CHIP MUNN ANSWER THESE QUESTIONS?  WHY?
 
BTW, USAPA never abided by ONE....ONE "SO-CALLED" ARBITRATION BECAUSE IT WAS NOT LEGALLY REQUIRED.  JUDGE SILVER RULED ON THAT!  
 
ALPA merger policy remains with ALPA.  Didn't they tell you that?  Oh yeah, Freund DID tell you that.
 
ANSWER THE QUESTIONS CHIP MUNN THE COWARD.
 
end_of_alpa said:
God Chip, USAPA PREVAILED!  You only provide OPINION, from your HEART???!!!????  What kind of irrelevant "crap" is that?  Step away from the keyboard.  If you understood what REALLY happened with Airtran at Southwest...which you FACTUALLY don't even know that it is NOT the same over here, you would KNOW that the ATA seniority integration was agreed to FIRST before they would MERGE.  They didn't really sidestep it, its just that the Airtran pilots didn't take ANY stand.  They approved the deal they were given in order to avoid litigation that they KNEW would have cost them a lot over time.  To them, it wasn't about the principle, it was about the money.  SWA was going to bleed them as a stand alone subsidiary and do to them what AAL is now doing to Envoy.  They would have had a fighting chance under M-B if they stuck with it, they just didn't.
 
As far as DOH zealots go, ANSWER THIS QUESTION:  WHY IS US AIRWAYS PILOTS TIME WORTH LESS THAN APA TIME?  Put another way, if time has no meaning why not hire Republic/Envoy pilots and make them Captains after the first year so the company can pay them 2 year pay over your 12 year pay?
 
WHY CAN'T THE COWARD CHIP MUNN ANSWER THESE QUESTIONS?  WHY?
 
BTW, USAPA never abided by ONE....ONE "SO-CALLED" ARBITRATION BECAUSE IT WAS NOT LEGALLY REQUIRED.  JUDGE SILVER RULED ON THAT!  
 
ALPA merger policy remains with ALPA.  Didn't they tell you that?  Oh yeah, Freund DID tell you that.
 
ANSWER THE QUESTIONS CHIP MUNN THE COWARD.
Calm down scab. USCABA "won" themselves into complete irrelevance. Your time is worth whatever the fair and equitable method decides for you. YOU DONT GET TO DECIDE ANYTHING A$$HOLE. Get it yet? You and your elderly group of mustachioed scabs are "in charge" of *nothing*. Your billion dollar gamble failed miserably and cost you nearly a full third of your career on LOA93. You're clearly incapable of any rational thought. The APA can't kill you fking idiots off fast enough.
 
Res Judicata said:
Calm down scab. USCABA "won" themselves into complete irrelevance. Your time is worth whatever the fair and equitable method decides for you. YOU DONT GET TO DECIDE ANYTHING ####. Get it yet? You and your elderly group of mustachioed scabs are "in charge" of *nothing*. Your billion dollar gamble failed miserably and cost you nearly a full third of your career on LOA93. You're clearly incapable of any rational thought. The APA can't kill you fking idiots off fast enough.
 
 
Two Rez J laughs in one post!  Well done.
 
"You're clearly incapable of any rational thought."  That is your skill.  No need to share your glory.  
 
"The APA can't kill you fking idiots off fast enough."  Exactly, and that is what bothers you so much.  
 
​Don't be a stranger.  We miss you. 
 
Res Judicata said:
Calm down scab. USCABA "won" themselves into complete irrelevance. Your time is worth whatever the fair and equitable method decides for you. YOU DONT GET TO DECIDE ANYTHING ####. Get it yet? You and your elderly group of mustachioed scabs are "in charge" of *nothing*. Your billion dollar gamble failed miserably and cost you nearly a full third of your career on LOA93. You're clearly incapable of any rational thought. The APA can't kill you fking idiots off fast enough.
You are a nutjob.  GFYS SCAB!
 
Res Judicata said:
Calm down scab. USCABA "won" themselves into complete irrelevance. Your time is worth whatever the fair and equitable method decides for you. YOU DONT GET TO DECIDE ANYTHING ####. Get it yet? You and your elderly group of mustachioed scabs are "in charge" of *nothing*. Your billion dollar gamble failed miserably and cost you nearly a full third of your career on LOA93. You're clearly incapable of any rational thought. The APA can't kill you fking idiots off fast enough.
Hey, that was great!  Let me say it again:  YOU ARE A NUTJOB.  GFYS SCAB!
 
end_of_alpa said:
Glad you brought that up.  However, you could only TRULY be hired after your first year of employment was behind you so the company couldn't let you go without cause.  In short, in your first year you could be let go for bad breath.
 
The probationary year is a contractual agreement, as it still is today.  Once training was successfully completed, you were hired as an employee and were on the payroll as such.
 
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