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2014 Pilot Discussion

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USA320Pilot said:
In the end I believe the pilots will have a 3/4 way M-B ISL arbitration (with a West MC) if USAPA loses its NMB request/M-B lawsuit following SCC per AAG and APA’s desire. In the interest of brevity I will not discuss my thoughts with my usual technique of providing exact factual quotes to support my position, but instead use bullet points:#1: Judge Silver ruled in the Addington DFR II trial USAPA must cease all M-B ISL work following SCC when APA becomes the union for all New American pilots because of the new contract language negotiated by USAPA, APA, and the Company. This decision created USAPA’s Judicial Estoppel problem. #2: USAPA, APA, and AAG failed to reach a Protocol Agreement (PA) largely in part because USAPA would not agree to a 3/4-way M-B arbitration, if held. USAPA wants a 2/3-way ISL arbitration where APA, USAPA, and AAG are the only participants. USAPA will not voluntarily agree to allow a West MC to participate in M-B, which is AAG and APA's desire to prevent being sued by AOL. This point led to the PA impasse. The only way we as line pilots found out about the real reason for the impasse was by reading US Airways' Motion to Reconsider, the Company's exhibits, and both APA and AAG's Reply and Counterclaim to USAPA's M-B lawsuit. For whatever reason the BPR has hid this information from the pilots. I wonder why? #3: While simultaneously negotiating the PA USAPA was preparing its NMB filing seeking a single versus 3-panel arbitration. In their Reply and Counterclaims to USAPA's M-B lawsuit both APA and AAG have accused USAPA of “bad faith” bargaining. In my opinion, USAPA's filing violates our contract that requires a 3-panel BOA for the M-B arbitration. And, USAPA is asking the NMB to authorize a proceeding outside of the pilot's contract. Will the NMB do that?#4: Shortly after filing its request with the NMB USAPA filed a lawsuit seeking an injunction against both APA and AAG asking the court to permit USAPA to act like an independent union for M-BI SL purposes following SCC. The challenge for USAPA is their petition violates the RLA, the pilot's contract, and federal law. In particular, those of us who do not fully understand the law just found out that USAPA is also violating the Judicial Estoppel legal standard because Pat Szymanski successfully argued against US Airways’ Summary Judgment petition. Szymanski convinced the court that the West pilots could not represent them self as part of a union in the M-B ISL arbitration, if held. For review, Judicial Estoppel “in the practice of law, (also known as estoppel by inconsistent positions) is an estoppel which precludes a party from taking a position in a case which is contrary to a position they have taken in earlier legal proceedings. It is generally agreed that it can only be cited if the party in question successfully maintained its position in the earlier proceedings and benefited from it.” Because USAPA argued the West pilots cannot represent them self in the M-B arbitration, if held, it cannot change its position and now argue it can argue it can represent the US Airways pilots in the M-B arbitration, if held, after SCC and USAPA ceases to exist per Judicial Estoppel. To compound that problem USAPA now has a court order stating USAPA cannot represent the US Airways pilots after APA is certified as the union for all New American pilots.#5: In response to USAPA’s petition filed in D.C federal court both APA and AAG filed their Reply and then sued USAPA with their Counterclaims, which are virtually identical petitions. Why is that? Collusion, a strategic alliance, or a common view of the law? However, the only way line pilots found out these facts was by reading US Airways’ Motion to Correct and the APA/AAG Reply and Counterclaims because USAPA has not provided the pilots this important information. Unfortunately, if a line pilot does not take the time to research and read all of these legal documents he or she is in the dark regarding USAPA's intent/action. USAPA and the BPR members have indicated they’re not telling us the whole story because it could place their legal strategy at risk. However, how many times have the pilots heard that before because the union’s hardliners believe the rank-and-file will make the wrong decision? For example, why were the pilots not told by the union’s hardline leaders the company offered to freeze our DB Plan twice before the plan was terminated and the MEC said “no” to Seth Schofield's offer? Or how about the pilots not being told the facts regarding LOA 93, the LOA 93 grievance, 3% grievance, PIC investigation, and AWA-US Airways SLI proceeding because of the union's strategy? History is a great teacher and I’m very suspicious of why USAPA is not informing the pilots of the facts regarding the current state of affairs in regard to the US Airways pilots SL integration with AA’s pilots. Now that I have listed key facts let me say this is uncharted territory and I truly don’t know how it will proceed. Here’s my bottom line point. USAPA seems to be focusing primarily on the Nicolau Award and the SLI of 5,000 pilots versus the SLI of 15,000 pilots.I’m concerned that this approach could fail because it appears to me USAPA is asking the NMB to set aside a part of the pilot's contract that USAPA does not agree with and I’m not sure the NMB has the authority to do so. USAPA is asking the NMB to order a single arbitrator M-B ISL arbitration, if held, versus the 3-arbitrator panel as required by the pilot's joint contract (MOU).In addition, USAPA is asking a federal judge to violate the RLA, the pilot's joint contract (MOU), and Judge Silver’s order to permit USAPA to act like an independent union after SCC even when USAPA will have no legal standing. Furthermore, USAPA has a severe credibility issue because of the Judicial Estoppel doctrine, which compounds its problem.My question is would it be better for USAPA to obtain a guaranteed seat at the M-B ISL table where it can have its own funding and counsel by agreeing to AAG and APA’s demand that the West Pilot Class has their own MC, funding and counsel -- or risk an adverse NMB and M-B injunction decision where APA takes total control of the SLI process and decides how the AA and US Airways seniority integration and proceeding will move forward?
CHIP MUNN IS A LIAR!

1. CAUSES OF ACTION

I. Claim One: Breach of the Duty of Fair Representation

...... judgment in favor of Defendant US Airline Pilots Association on Count I

II. Claim Two: Breach of Transition Agreement by US Airways

..... judgment in favor of US Airways, Inc. on Count II

III. Claim Three: Attorneys’ Fees

..... judgment of dismissal without prejudice on Count III

IV. Prayer for Relief

...... judgment in favor of Defendant US Airline Pilots Association on Count IV

2. The APA wanted USAPA to SURRENDER M-B protections to APA. That was in those proposals just like TWA and USAPA wouldn't do it. Read the "proposed" protocol agreement.
What's really funny is that the APA doesn't care where the West pilots go as long as ALL US AIRWAYS PILOTS GO TO THE BOTTOM OF THE SENIORITY LIST.

3. CHIP MUNN STUPID SH1T opinion.

4. Here is that "judicial estoppel" argument crap Doyal puts out. USAPA IS AND ALWAYS WILL BE THE PARTY THAT REPRESENTS US AIRWAYS PILOTS UNDER M-B. Period.
It is in the MOU and that is USAPA is a party "for the purposes of the MOU and M-B". AOL is precluded from making a DFR claim against ANYONE because they LOST IN SILVERS COURT. ESTOPPEL.

5. WHAT KEY FACTS, CHIP? No opinion, FACTS!

The pilots VOTED for LOA93. They chose. Old news anyway.

Oh, USAPA is NOT asking a "federal judge" to violate the RLA. On the contrary hey are asking a federal judge to ENFORCE M-B AND THE RLA UNDER THE INTENT OF THE MOU.

Chip, YOURE ALWAYS WRONG AND ALWAYS WILL BE.

What a stupid man.
 
lynyrdskynyrd said:
USA320, Usapa is a figurative Genie Lamp. Why shoud it change tack? I don't like it either, but that's the way it seems to be. The 'system' to usapa:
"I'd like to bust your butt but I can't. I got another problem here. I gotta send somebody from this squadron to Miramar. I gotta do something here, I still can't believe it. I gotta give you your dream shot! I'm gonna send you up against the best. You two characters are going to Top Gun."
Yeah, and if you Westicles continue to follow Doyal/Chip logic the only thing it gets you is deeper in debt. The problem with Westicles is that they want to "believe" Chip logic that East pilots are not informed and don't read this stuff. THAT COULDN'T BE FURTHER FROM THE TRUTH.

USAPA is protected by M-B and they WILL be one of three parties under M-B AAL and APA being the other two. The MOU stipulates it and that is the way it will play out. LEGALLY.

If you Westicles were smart at least use your own Westicles like Doyal to make your points instead of East puppets like Chip and Dan.
 
end_of_alpa said:
CHIP MUNN IS A LIAR!
1. CAUSES OF ACTION
I. Claim One: Breach of the Duty of Fair Representation
...... judgment in favor of Defendant US Airline Pilots Association on Count I
II. Claim Two: Breach of Transition Agreement by US Airways
..... judgment in favor of US Airways, Inc. on Count II
III. Claim Three: Attorneys’ Fees
..... judgment of dismissal without prejudice on Count III
IV. Prayer for Relief
...... judgment in favor of Defendant US Airline Pilots Association on Count IV
2. The APA wanted USAPA to SURRENDER M-B protections to APA. That was in those proposals just like TWA and USAPA wouldn't do it. Read the "proposed" protocol agreement.
What's really funny is that the APA doesn't care where the West pilots go as long as ALL US AIRWAYS PILOTS GO TO THE BOTTOM OF THE SENIORITY LIST.
3. CHIP MUNN STUPID SH1T opinion.
4. Here is that "judicial estoppel" argument crap Doyal puts out. USAPA IS AND ALWAYS WILL BE THE PARTY THAT REPRESENTS US AIRWAYS PILOTS UNDER M-B. Period.
It is in the MOU and that is USAPA is a party "for the purposes of the MOU and M-B". AOL is precluded from making a DFR claim against ANYONE because they LOST IN SILVERS COURT. ESTOPPEL.
5. WHAT KEY FACTS, CHIP? No opinion, FACTS!
The pilots VOTED for LOA93. They chose. Old news anyway.
Oh, USAPA is NOT asking a "federal judge" to violate the RLA. On the contrary hey are asking a federal judge to ENFORCE M-B AND THE RLA UNDER THE INTENT OF THE MOU.
Chip, YOURE ALWAYS WRONG AND ALWAYS WILL BE.
What a stupid man.



Subject: U-Turn: U-Turn reader replies to Captain Chip Munn


We’ve heard from Captain Munn before. He currently runs his own Pro-ALPA “PilotAction” website. Now he hypes an anonymous site of questionable “facts.” Wherever he sees an audience, he jumps on the latest cause. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but I disagree with his. We have learned that when Captain Munn is involved, be very afraid, if he’s on your side of the issue.
 
luvthe9 said:
Subject: U-Turn: U-Turn reader replies to Captain Chip Munn
We’ve heard from Captain Munn before. He currently runs his own Pro-ALPA “PilotAction” website. Now he hypes an anonymous site of questionable “facts.” Wherever he sees an audience, he jumps on the latest cause. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but I disagree with his. We have learned that when Captain Munn is involved, be very afraid, if he’s on your side of the issue.



Captain Munn and his few supporters have put out a constant stream of misrepresentations that are easily disproved. They want a return to the ALPA of old. They’re now on the outside, with no way back in except by replacing USAPA and receiving ALPA’s long-term gratitude.
 
With USAPA’s appeal on the Addington decision to the Ninth Circuit Court on the fast-track and an appellate decision expected in early 2010, I believe hundreds of East pilots are now ready to reach across the table to the West pilots to join forces to “kick USAPA off the property”, but for this to occur we must have a partnership with the West pilots and we are ready to do so.


Should have not got his job back.
 
Beancounter said:
Are you really going to make me explain humor, sarcasm, and the use of smiley faces? 🙂
Seriously though, I trust the company far more than I do USAPA. I find that to be a sad state of affairs.
Bean
Beancounter said:
....
Seriously though, I trust the company far more than I do USAPA. I find that to be a sad state of affairs.
Bean
Seriously, a union is what the majority of pilots want it to be, and what the law protects it to do. The minority always has the consolation of bitching, or suing. It is all too obvious the West long ago went hysterical. They either want the Nic or want to harm the East as much as possible regardless of the harm they cause themselves.

So far it's been quite humorous and there presently is no legal cause of action at work to change the ever steady comedy at play. AOL should sport a new tie style every month. :Lol:
 
USA320Pilot said:
#1: Judge Silver ruled in the Addington DFR II trial USAPA must cease all M-B ISL work following SCC when APA becomes the union for all New American pilots because of the new contract language negotiated by USAPA, APA, and the Company. This decision created USAPA’s Judicial Estoppel problem. 

...

Now that I have listed key facts let me say this is uncharted territory and I truly don’t know how it will proceed.
 
Can you please provide a reference showing that Silver Ordered this?? 
 
And I agree with the last part I underlined... I think we are all in that category.
 
It strikes me as odd that someone like yourself that seems to truly try and keep themselves informed and also UNDERSTAND what is going on can believe that Judge Silver ordered something that was not in the courts orders issued by the Judge... I think people jump on you often because you make statements like these and claim them to be "Facts", and yet they are so easily disproved to be facts. That makes it look like you are making things up that you wish were true and hoping the average pilot will just take your word for it. 
 
Why not let the real facts stand on their own merit and let the chips fall where they may...
 
algflyr said:
Can you please provide a reference showing that Silver Ordered this?? 
 
And I agree with the last part I underlined... I think we are all in that category.
 
It strikes me as odd that someone like yourself that seems to truly try and keep themselves informed and also UNDERSTAND what is going on can believe that Judge Silver ordered something that was not in the courts orders issued by the Judge... I think people jump on you often because you make statements like these and claim them to be "Facts", and yet they are so easily disproved to be facts. That makes it look like you are making things up that you wish were true and hoping the average pilot will just take your word for it. 
 
Why not let the real facts stand on their own merit and let the chips fall where they may...
DING DING DING DING DING DING ....... WE HAVE A WINNER. DITTO!
 
Phoenix said:
Seriously, a union is what the majority of pilots want it to be, and what the law protects it to do. The minority always has the consolation of bitching, or suing. It is all too obvious the West long ago went hysterical. They either want the Nic or want to harm the East as much as possible regardless of the harm they cause themselves.
So far it's been quite humorous and there presently is no legal cause of action at work to change the ever steady comedy at play. AOL should sport a new tie style every month. :Lol:
DING DING DING DING DING DING ....... WE HAVE ANOTHER WINNER. DITTO!
 
Beancounter said:
Good to see you've realized what a Pyrrhic victory that was. 
Re-read post #7098
 

You're incapable of communicating with the west, the company, or the APA. Have you ever considered the problem might be you?
"We have stormed the castle, hoist our flag and make its inhabitants our servants."

Do these words sound familiar? They should, it was the West merger committee.

It was never about fair and equitable with you. It was all about you screwing someone else to benefit yourselves.

You were all about Date of Hire in the American TransAir deal. Take the widebody jobs for yourselves, Take the narrowbody Captain jobs for yourselves. Take take take for yourselves.

The East stood up and you pay the price - whine whine whine.

Come back in 2 years losers. We'll see what's on the shelves after the pick overs.
 
end_of_alpa said:
Yeah, and if you Westicles continue to follow Doyal/Chip logic the only thing it gets you is deeper in debt. The problem with Westicles is that they want to "believe" Chip logic that East pilots are not informed and don't read this stuff. THAT COULDN'T BE FURTHER FROM THE TRUTH.

USAPA is protected by M-B and they WILL be one of three parties under M-B AAL and APA being the other two. The MOU stipulates it and that is the way it will play out. LEGALLY.

If you Westicles were smart at least use your own Westicles like Doyal to make your points instead of East puppets like Chip and Dan.
If you want USAPA to be the only US Airways agent representing the pilots at MB you're going to have to appeal your "big win". Silver wiped USAPA off the table, APA understood her order as does AAL management. As it stands now, USAPA...whatever that is after decertification, isn't going to get so much as a phone call as to where the meetings are being held. I believe the key phrase is "Pyrric". The 9th is the only place you can go with Silver, you'll be funding that on your own.
 
Metroyet said:
If you want USAPA to be the only US Airways agent representing the pilots at MB you're going to have to appeal your "big win". Silver wiped USAPA off the table, APA understood her order as does AAL management. As it stands now, USAPA...whatever that is after decertification, isn't going to get so much as a phone call as to where the meetings are being held. I believe the key phrase is "Pyrric". The 9th is the only place you can go with Silver, you'll be funding that on your own.
 
You truly need to read what Silver actually ruled, and not what you think (or hope) she ruled.
 
I realize that, living in Pheonix, there is a strong possibility that English is not your first language, so I suggest you find a trustworthy translator, preferably one with a law degree.  It may help you understand it.  (But I doubt it will get through that oxygen-free bubble in which you live.)
 
This is a portion of a post on a different forum. I utilize it here as a reference only. I did not repost it in its entirety, since i havent gotten permision from the author.
Could someone (the author hopefully) please show me where judge Silver in her ruling, made this said ruling....thanks.
Begin quote
In the end I believe the pilots will have a 3/4 way M-B ISL arbitration (with a West MC) if USAPA loses its NMB request/M-B lawsuit following SCC per AAG and APAs desire. In the interest of brevity I will not discuss my thoughts with my usual technique of providing exact factual quotes to support my position, but instead use bullet points:

#1: Judge Silver ruled in the Addington DFR II trial USAPA must cease all M-B ISL work following SCC when APA becomes the union for all New American pilots because of the new contract language negotiated by USAPA, APA, and the Company. This decision created USAPAs Judicial Estoppel problem.
 
im back..!! said:
This is a portion of a post on a different forum. I utilize it here as a reference only. I did not repost it in its entirety, since i havent gotten permision from the author.
Could someone (the author hopefully) please show me where judge Silver in her ruling, made this said ruling....thanks.
Begin quote
In the end I believe the pilots will have a 3/4 way M-B ISL arbitration (with a West MC) if USAPA loses its NMB request/M-B lawsuit following SCC per AAG and APAs desire. In the interest of brevity I will not discuss my thoughts with my usual technique of providing exact factual quotes to support my position, but instead use bullet points:
#1: Judge Silver ruled in the Addington DFR II trial USAPA must cease all M-B ISL work following SCC when APA becomes the union for all New American pilots because of the new contract language negotiated by USAPA, APA, and the Company. This decision created USAPAs Judicial Estoppel problem.

Nothing new, just regurgitated "Chipster" drivel. It means nothing! Regardless of where it gets posted.


seajay
 
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