2014 Pilot Discussion

[traderjake]

They will be represented like every other USAPA pilot, sorry son you and Chippy must be upset tonight.

 
It's not my fight, I just have an opinion on what's fair and what's not.
 
The West are perfectly capable of defending themselves. 
 
I still say the final outcome will be closer to the Nicolau Award than it is to DOH.

 

[CallawayGolf]

Silver has a better grasp of politically sympathetic word smithing than she does of the rule of law.  IMHO it would have cost a lot less if the courts had been able to divorce themselves from personal feelings and political crafting from the very beginning. 
 
The APA and USAPA can now come up with a list, put it out for ratification for all of us to deem it fair, and we move on.  The folks in charge appear to be moderate enough and political enough that it might just work out to piss off everyone, in a good sort of way.  😀

I agree Silver should have tossed from the get go. Did she really think that she would overrule her own previous order?

Of course I think the results could have been different if AOL filed outside of the Ninth's jurisdiction. Perhaps with judge Conrad in NC who was already familiar with USAPA fuzzy view on federal law.

If both APA and USAPA go into the SLI process with three separate lists and agree on a general framework of slotting by equipment and status, this could be done with reasonably cool heads leading a pilot group that will accept the good with the bad that may come from that. If USAPA demands DOH, then it goes to arbitration IMO and I wouldn't give east pilots much of chance of getting what they want given their repeated disregard for the rulings of arbitrators.

 

[luvthe9]

It's not my fight, the West are perfectly capable of defending themselves. 
 
I still say the final outcome will be closer to the Nicolau Award than it is to DOH.

No they are not , they now owe millions to Marty and company, they have stripped their families of money, now another large bid out for the east, so many westies could have shared in this if not for their greed. You and your boyfriend Chippy can say want ever you want, it's over east wins.

 

[Keroseneuser]

I have to agree with calloway here.    It appears this ruling will finally put the NIC question to rest.   If USAPA goes in with the 2 US lists as they appear today and represent both lists equally with the same protections for both I think we can get through it pretty quick.   East and west keep what they brought in and something can be worked out.   If USAPA comes up with some weird combined list to present to APA that can only lead to problems.
 
Follow the MOU, use the lists as they currently appear, and protect the PHX base just as they do any of the east bases.    Do that and the NIC is dead and gone,  anything other than that and we (east) invite legal problems.    After 9 years of this crap that is the last thing we need going into a merger with a 10000 pilot strong APA.     
 
Just my opinion of course.   Some on here probably won't like my opinion,  but I think the best call is the one that will ensure the NIC is never mentioned again and everybody goes into the merger with APA based on how the lists looked on December 9th 2013,  not 2005

 

[end_of_alpa]

I agree Silver should have tossed from the get go. Did she really think that she would overrule her own previous order?
Of course I think the results could have been different if AOL filed outside of the Ninth's jurisdiction. Perhaps with judge Conrad in NC who was already familiar with USAPA fuzzy view on federal law.
If both APA and USAPA go into the SLI process with three separate lists and agree on a general framework of slotting by equipment and status, this could be done with reasonably cool heads leading a pilot group that will accept the good with the bad that may come from that. If USAPA demands DOH, then it goes to arbitration IMO and I wouldn't give east pilots much of chance of getting what they want given their repeated disregard for the rulings of arbitrators.

Here comes the "spin". "iF", "perhaps", "yatta, yata, yatta". They go into the SLI with TWO lists....PERIOD. THere isn't going to be "slotting" under the "fair and equitable" standard. You guys keep thinking ALPA merger policy has influence here. It does not. However, if the arbitrators give slotting one for one starting from the top of both lists that's all the better for USAPA pilots.

 

[Piedmont1984]

In the event that APA becomes our bargaining agent before the M/B process is complete, can someone post a link or reference the specific language which allows USAPA to continue to represent our interests during seniority arbitration. IOW, once the NMB certifies APA as the bargaining agent for all pilots, USAPA can no longer act as the legal representative for the former LCC pilots unless there exists MTA or MOU language to the contrary, which I am having trouble finding.
Depending on what happens with AFA/APFA, single carrier status could happen sooner rather than later. I don't see how this would be in our interests.
Silver's interpretation of the timeline and it's significance has me concerned.

That's because you're a dunce. The Protocal Agreement which is TBD should contain language stipulating that the merger committee at the very least will represent the USAPA pilots until the SLI is completed. Off to your corner.

 

[end_of_alpa]

I have to agree with calloway here.    It appears this ruling will finally put the NIC question to rest.   If USAPA goes in with the 2 US lists as they appear today and represent both lists equally with the same protections for both I think we can get through it pretty quick.   East and west keep what they brought in and something can be worked out.   If USAPA comes up with some weird combined list to present to APA that can only lead to problems.
 
Follow the MOU, use the lists as they currently appear, and protect the PHX base just as they do any of the east bases.    Do that and the NIC is dead and gone,  anything other than that and we (east) invite legal problems.    After 9 years of this crap that is the last thing we need going into a merger with a 10000 pilot strong APA.     
 
Just my opinion of course.   Some on here probably won't like my opinion,  but I think the best call is the one that will ensure the NIC is never mentioned again and everybody goes into the merger with APA based on how the lists looked on December 9th 2013,  not 2005

USAPA has only one list. I have a copy of it. It is the ONLY list that USAPA has LEGALLY submitted to the company. That is also a fact.

 

[end_of_alpa]

But all the Court can do at this stage is implore USAPA to, in the words of
CAB, “make every effort to see that [the West Pilots’] are given extensive consideration, and
that their interests are fairly and fully represented” during seniority integration. National
Airlines, Acquisition, 84 C.A.B. 408, 477 (1979). And when USAPA is no longer the
certified representative, it must immediately stop participating in the seniority integration.
15

That is NOT the intent of the MOU and even if it is silent if the NMB eventually rules who will be the rep USAPA is still legally a "party" in the MOU and both the company and the APA cannot refute that.

 

[traderjake]

 If USAPA goes in with the 2 US lists as they appear today and represent both lists equally with the same protections for both I think we can get through it pretty quick.   East and west keep what they brought in and something can be worked out.   If USAPA comes up with some weird combined list to present to APA that can only lead to problems.

 
That's probably USAPA best strategy but I'm sure luvthe9, end_of_alpa, and the BPR will insist we present a single DOH seniority list.

 

[Phoenix]

In the event that APA becomes our bargaining agent before the M/B process is complete, can someone post a link or reference the specific language which allows USAPA to continue to represent our interests during seniority arbitration. IOW, once the NMB certifies APA as the bargaining agent for all pilots, USAPA can no longer act as the legal representative for the former LCC pilots unless there exists MTA or MOU language to the contrary, which I am having trouble finding.

Depending on what happens with AFA/APFA, single carrier status could happen sooner rather than later. I don't see how this would be in our interests.

Silver's interpretation of the timeline and it's significance has me concerned.

 
Silver is a politician that is all over the place until she has to actually get back into the role of a judge and write a narrow and accurate order with her signature immediately below.  The dicta is her political sand box, so to speak.  
 
There is no legal document that gives the old ALPA process any continuance.  

 

[Bill Brasky]

Seems silly to me to expend all the time/effort/money to accomplish this, then just roll over and abandon what you fought for.  Sounds like something the US government would do....
 
I'm sure Marty and his followers are looking for loose threads, even as we speak....

 

[luvthe9]

That's probably USAPA best strategy but I sure luvthe9, end_of_alpa, and the BPR will insist we present a single DOH seniority list.

I sure?

 

[traderjake]

USAPA has only one list. I have a copy of it. It is the ONLY list that USAPA has LEGALLY submitted to the company. That is also a fact.

 
Where's the contract that contains that single list?
 
Are you saying that  USAPA can unilaterally change the seniority list when ever it sees fit?
 
Changes to the seniority list have to be negotiated in the context of a contract.

 

[luvthe9]

Yes, DOH with C & R's, seat protection, 5 to 7 yr fence on APA' s big planes.

 

[Phoenix]

USAPA has only one list. I have a copy of it. It is the ONLY list that USAPA has LEGALLY submitted to the company. That is also a fact.

 
 
That is true but it is not the status quo.  Neither the ALPA proposed list nor the USAPA proposed list is the status quo.  The APA and USAPA can now discuss a fair and equitable method to merger all pilots they represent, and they should do it post haste and have everyone ratify it, rather than do something stupid like go to an arbitrator, or another judge.  😀