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2014 Pilot Discussion

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Pi brat said:
Umm, I hate to rain on your parade, I really do. But I think your preconceived notions are bumping into one another.
 
Could that be because if the company and the APA get their way then you will present your list(along with your fleet and your position on it, right?) and you haven't had any mergers reflected in your list. USAPA will present our list and which airline we were integrated from. So everyone on your list(the one in effect) would have AWA beside it, while ours would have US,PI,PS,Trump and Emprie.
 
Have you guys really, really thought out this whole separate merger committee thing?
I would not want to go in by myself if I was a westie , again no career expectations, brings nothing to the merge and was going to be liquidated (Project Zanibar) also a money losing operation, geez we had to give the west around 28 percent of our flying to make them look halfway profitable.
 
Metroyet said:
I know that USAPA has never, and will never fairly represent the West pilots. Silver flatly stated that in her ruling as well, right after she called out your attorney on ethics violations. I know a Jury found USAPA guilty of DFR and there are numerous statments made over the years by various other Federal Judges that USAPA is basically a piriah. So to answer your question, Yes. I'm sure the West has thought out long and hard whether or not they want to represent themselves in front of an Arbitration panel as opposed to a fake union that not only will not fairly represent them, but has gone to the ends of the Earth, to inflict as much damage as possible upon the minority group. If You had it your way, PHX would have been closed and every single employee of the former America West would be unemployed. Scorched Earth. Bitter hatred. Sure...the West wants you to represent their interests.
 
I don't think there is going to be an agreed upon protocol. APA wants a 3 way with the Nic. admitted into evidence.  You guys are scared to death of that because you can't control the minority group and you lose total control of the message that gets delivered to the Arbitration panel, (as if they don't know about the Nic.).
 
AS usual, if USAPA was so convinced of the fairness of their "proposals" they wouldn't hesitate to allow a neutral 3rd party to arbitrate it. It's the very last place on Earth USAPA will go to willingly and says it all regarding how "fair" the East plans on being with the West and how 'fair" they actually believe DOH to be. 
 
USAPA has never fooled anyone...which is why Silver decapitated your fake union.
So angry!
 
That's what I would do? You don't know me very well.
 
I'm thinking the 3 committees is the way to go. 3 seniority lists, three committees and 3 fleets. What you brought to the merger. How's that sound?
 
Metroyet said:
Perhaps you've lied to yourself so many times that you now actually believe this? Don't worry. Every single entity knows exactly what USAPA is/WAS and where the East pilots would have been had AWA not rescued you. Here's an interesting read:
 
Still think there's going to be a protocol agreement?
 
Excerpt from Exhibit D; APA SIC Proposal:

SENIORITY INTEGRATION PROTOCOL AGREEMENT


WHEREAS, in implementation of the agreements made in the MOU, the following protocols are established.

3. Within ___ days of the execution of this Protocol Agreement, the
Merger Committees shall compile, verify, certify and exchange (in electronic
Excel format whenever possible) employment data for each pilot on their
respective pre-merger seniority lists, as follows.

a. The information certified and exchanged will include the
following information:

(3) The identification, with an appropriate designator on
the seniority list, of any pilot whose placement on the
pre-merger list was determined by a prior seniority
integration agreement or award.
Provide each such
pilot's dates of employment at predecessor airlines,
subject to previous seniority integrations (e.g., TWA,
Reno, Air Cal, TCA, America West, Piedmont,
USAirways Shuttle, PSA, Empire).
 
 
The APA wants the Nic in hand. Perhaps the next arbitration panel won't be "senile" and see your staple job attempt as righteous and deserved...or perhaps they'll just take the East and West list and feather one for one eliminating the 519 whose WB protection has already been used.
 
Someday the enormity of the USAPA mistake will dawn upon you.
 
cherrypicking.jpg
 
luvthe9 said:
I would not want to go in by myself if I was a westie , again no career expectations, brings nothing to the merge and was going to be liquidated (Project Zanibar) also a money losing operation, geez we had to give the west around 28 percent of our flying to make them look halfway profitable.
They are going to go in there and argue that the Nic should be used-although it was never implemented and they claimed the MOU abandoned it. Then they are going to claim the widebodies-because they should have been flying them. Then they are going to claim that they don't really have 9 year F/Os at the bottom of the 320 list-because, well, they shouldn't be and wouldn't be absent the nasty easties!(and the TA).
 
Metroyet said:
(3) The identification, with an appropriate designator on
the seniority list, of any pilot whose placement on the
pre-merger list was determined by a prior seniority
integration agreement or award.
Provide each such
pilot's dates of employment at predecessor airlines,
subject to previous seniority integrations (e.g., TWA,
Reno, Air Cal, TCA, America West, Piedmont,
USAirways Shuttle, PSA, Empire).
 
 
The APA wants the Nic in hand.
TCA means Trans Caribbean Airlines which merged with American in 1970.

I'm sure the Nic is just as relevant.
 
Metroyet said:
I know that USAPA has never, and will never fairly represent the West pilots. Silver flatly stated that in her ruling as well, right after she called out your attorney on ethics violations. I know a Jury found USAPA guilty of DFR and there are numerous statments made over the years by various other Federal Judges that USAPA is basically a piriah. So to answer your question, Yes. I'm sure the West has thought out long and hard whether or not they want to represent themselves in front of an Arbitration panel as opposed to a fake union that not only will not fairly represent them, but has gone to the ends of the Earth, to inflict as much damage as possible upon the minority group. If You had it your way, PHX would have been closed and every single employee of the former America West would be unemployed. Scorched Earth. Bitter hatred. Sure...the West wants you to represent their interests.
 
I don't think there is going to be an agreed upon protocol. APA wants a 3 way with the Nic. admitted into evidence.  You guys are scared to death of that because you can't control the minority group and you lose total control of the message that gets delivered to the Arbitration panel, (as if they don't know about the Nic.).
 
AS usual, if USAPA was so convinced of the fairness of their "proposals" they wouldn't hesitate to allow a neutral 3rd party to arbitrate it. It's the very last place on Earth USAPA will go to willingly and says it all regarding how "fair" the East plans on being with the West and how 'fair" they actually believe DOH to be. 
 
USAPA has never fooled anyone...which is why Silver decapitated your fake union.
USAPA has ALWAYS fairly represented the west.  The west wants MORE than fair.
 
Get over it.  The Nic isn't a player here.  If it even gets introduced, I, personally if need be, will file a DFR against whomever introduces it.
 
Metroyet said:
APA wants a 3 way with the Nic.
 
Perhaps you would be kind enough to explain to us all how it's actually even possible to have a "3 way", if the nic's magically predetermined to be the one, true and holy list for both west and east?..Or for that matter; were ANY combined, single list presented from the USAirways side? Wouldn't that necessarily result in merely a 2 way from the very start? Methinks at least one of us is seriously unclear on the concept here. If what you're actually suggesting is that the west, if given a seat, can wave the nic as their wish list against whatever the APA fields, that's different. What would prove most amusing in such a case is what the west might then argue should be the collective USAirways placement against the APA folks. 😉
 
Feel perfectly free to now burst yet another acidic, emotional dam, and pour forth additional deluges of deranged and venomous nonsense.
 
EastUS1 said:
 
Perhaps you would be kind enough to explain to us all how it's even possible to have a "3 way", if the nic's magically predertermined to be the one, true and holy list for both west and east? Wouldn't that necessarily result in merely a 2 way from the very start?
The new request doesn't include any request to vacate the order which specifically said that the westies are not entitled to be part of the SLI discussion separately.  It only requests that the "dicta" conversation which muddied the waters and is causing renewed fear of further lawsuits be removed.
 
That footnoted text is clearly in error, as if true, the entire reason for the M/B law would not exist in the first place.  Both sides are entitled to representation in the SLI process, both before AND after the single carrier status is awarded by the NMB.
 
In my opinion, Mr Siegel is giving the Judge a way to correct her error before this entire thing gets escalated to the 9th Circuit by one of the parties.  I don't see this as changing the fact that the Nic is a non-player.
 
Bill Brasky said:
The new request doesn't include any request to vacate the order which specifically said that the westies are not entitled to be part of the SLI discussion separately.  It only requests that the "dicta" conversation which muddied the waters and is causing renewed fear of further lawsuits be removed.
 
So it read to me as well Bill.
 
Bill Brasky said:
USAPA has ALWAYS fairly represented the west.  The west wants MORE than fair.
 
Get over it.  The Nic isn't a player here.  If it even gets introduced, I, personally if need be, will file a DFR against whomever introduces it.
Agreed. The only affirmation of the Nic resided in an agreement that was nullified by contract. Breach of contract is much easier to prove than breach of DFR. I might be wrong, but I cannot imagine any of the parties to the contract breaching it so blatantly. However, they may toy with language that allows "implicit assumers" to hope, and donate!!
 
Had a few AMR boys on the jumpseat last trip, a 15 yr and a 11 yr seniority, now you westies listen up they want nothing to do with the NIC, which is long gone anyhow.
 
Metroyet said:
I'm sure the West has thought out long and hard whether or not they want to represent themselves in front of an Arbitration panel as opposed to a fake union that not only will not fairly represent them, but has gone to the ends of the Earth, to inflict as much damage as possible upon the minority group. If You had it your way, PHX would have been closed and every single employee of the former America West would be unemployed. Scorched Earth. Bitter hatred. Sure...the West wants you to represent their interests.
 
 
I'll say this...you West guys have the market cornered on drama and exaggeration. The part about inflicting damage really takes the cake...
Speaking of inflicting damage, how would you characterize the West bitterly opposing pay parity for the East when all this started out? Or offering to cross any picket line? Or telling the company you would scab any part of the East operation they desired? And you wonder why some East guys really have a problem with you?
 
A320 Driver said:
And you wonder why some East guys really have a problem with you?
Some, how about all of us, well minus Traitor of course, ask Kevin which airline he decided to go with, he might have pulled a Stein.
 
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