2014 Pilot Discussion

[Metroyet]

 
Save that should all three contingents have their own platforms, then arbitration is assured, which leaves the arbitrators free to do as they please, whatever any "spartan" assumptions are to the contrary, and "you'se" have run on nothing but assumptions since May 2007, NONE of which have played out to west liking, The west, in an arbitration scenario, is left to produce it's own group's argument alone, shout out "This is sparta!" and "The nic is it!" to your hearts content, and pray they're all three mightilly impressed by that, and simply hope they won't even glance at the current state of PHX versus the East at all, much less PHX against the APA's pilot opportunities, aircraft, etc. The west assumption here (among countless other such really) is that all arbitrators, being themselves people without egos or personal opinions naturally, will universally pay reverent homage to Mr. Nic's fine work, and not be even the least bit mindfull of why these things are no longer trusted to but one of them, and readilly embrace, without even so much as a moment's thought, a work done in 2007, but never implemented due to it's contentious results....correct? Whatever the results of such, should arbitration happen; "you'se"/none involved, would see bidding on any combined list for a long time. Was not the AWA-US, supposed "merger" not inked in 2005? And refresh our collective memories as to when the nic was finally penned..?
 
"Not really all that difficult of a concept is it?"

Final and Binding...Do Arbitrators get that concept? Place your bets. You've been running on the assumption that majority rules...it doesn't. It's only cost you a quarter of a million dollars to learn that. Do yourself the honor of not pretending that USAPA has any kind of future...short term or otherwise. Silver wadded up the whole mess and threw it in her trash can. Control has been stripped from you as your fake union has proven to be unworthy of even the slighest bit of trust or responsibility.
 

 

[EastUS1]

You've been running on the assumption that majority rules...it doesn't.

 
Yet you're clearly running on the assumption that it indeed does where the APA's concerned. At least strive for some slight semblance of consistency.
 
"Final and Binding...Do Arbitrators get that concept?...." Oh, naturally they'd all be of absolutely identical mindests where the nic's concerned, after all; don't all of any given profession, say..like pilots, always agree on everything and support each other's philosophies to the maximum extent humanly possible? 😉

 

[nycbusdriver]

 Now we're bumping into the other MOU timeline which stipulates that an arbitration panel must be selected if no negotiated settlement is reached by POR+90 days. That would be about Mar 10. Does anyone expect a single carrier determination by then?

That last question is rhetorical.

 
Even though it's rhetorical, I must say that I think some of the moronic westholes on the forum seem to think so.

 

[nycbusdriver]

So angry!
 
That's what I would do? You don't know me very well.
 
I'm thinking the 3 committees is the way to go. 3 seniority lists, three committees and 3 fleets. What you brought to the merger. How's that sound?

 
In theory, it sounds good.  I would probably have supported (FWIW) that concept, but now I think it is moot.
 
The west committee would have had to be elected by the west class for me (FWIW) to support it.  And, it would guarantee an arbitrated SLI.  The negotiation phase would simply be an exercise in futility, since whoever the west elected would never agree to anything but the use of the Nicolau abomination.
 
Also, when you speak of the fleet you "bring to the merger," it's important to note that many of the east widebodies, and some of the E190s, showed up after the US/AW merger and BOTH sides have claim to some of those airplanes that US is bringing to THIS merger.
 
It's important to keep in mind that, bottom line, this is a merger between TWO carriers and not  three.  The only "three" thing is the fact that there are three active seniority lists which is an anomaly in mergers.

 

[nycbusdriver]

really, the jumpseat? How special is that?

I have spoken directly with certain influential pilot representatives from the APA, ALPA, CAPA.

Know what they all told me? I will share. Unsolicited, and not while being afforded the courtesy of the jumpseat, every one of them said The West is in the right and nobody likes what uscaba is doing.

Now I hear the company is fast tracking SCS to rid us all of the SCAB union, they may even screw up my St Patrick's day prediction if they get their way.

 
What I think is happening is that these jumpseat riders, APA, ALPA, CAPA, etc. ad nauseam, are going to say exactly what they think the listener (be it east or west) wants to hear.  They don't want to "get into it" with any of us, and they have every right to humor the particular listener with a smiling nod.  "Go along to get along," as they say.  None of these conversations (if they really even have taken place) mean squat in the grand scheme of things.

 

[nycbusdriver]

Nonsense? Ask the APA. It was their initial protocol proposal that included a 3 committee negotiation/arbitration. The East can show up with their DOH list...even though 1879 were hopelessly without a job, (which you can bet will be illustrated by the West) The West shows up with a Final and  Binding award, and the APA will do whatever they think is in thier best interest. Not really all that difficult of a concept is it?

 
What final and binding award?  The one (neither final, nor binding except on ALPA) that was made a nullity, along with the old TA, on December 9, 2013?

 

[goneflyin]

Do you guys really expect arbitrators to ignore a previous arbitration award? It's possible, but I would't bet on it.

 

[A320 Driver]

Final and Binding...Do Arbitrators get that concept? Place your bets.

Your assumption being that all arbitrators agree...belong to the same club. How about this for a theory. The other arbitrators see what an industry uproar the NIC caused. How it has been cited repeatedly as something to be avoided at all costs. So not only do they not embrace it, but take great care to stop it from contaminating future arbitrations to restore some confidence in the process.
You seem so sure that this abortion called the NIC is the perfect and final solution. All it did was rip the guts out of the merger. It stapled over 1800 East pilots to the bottom of the list with no credit for their time in service. It placed new hires on equal footing with pilots with over 15 years of continuous service and experience. It relieved most of the East pilots of the attrition they brought to the merger. It was a MISTAKE and the ONLY reason you want it is to put you ahead of as many East pilots as possible. Why can't you just admit that??? I know, I know. You can't do that and maintain your holier that thou crusade against the East. Carry on...

 

[PullUp]

Do you guys really expect arbitrators to ignore a previous arbitration award? It's possible, but I would't bet on it.

A vast majority of west members of USAPA voted to nullify all previous contracts and agreements, which included the Nic list. The MOU agreed to also stipulated that seniority would be 'status-quo' and not changed by the agreement. The status quo is two separate lists. The Nic has been dead for months. The westies can scream about it all they want, but the Nic list is now just a conceptual bargaining position by a terminally disgruntled subset of employees.
Cheers.

 

[flyer63]

The NIC was never binding, it missed that one last step to implement. a joint CBA. Ask mr Kirby.

And remember when a vote for the MOU was being tolled by the west as a vote for the NIC...

Don't think so....

"All the risk is on the west"

 

[Phoenix]

Do you guys really expect arbitrators to ignore a previous arbitration award? It's possible, but I would't bet on it.

An arbitrated award is of force to the extent there is an agreement for it to be so, upon those that have agreed to it. No more no less, and upon no one else. Now that all agreements prior to 9 December are a nullity there is little to affirm the relevance of the Nic beyond nostalgia.

Sure a future arbitrator can do whatever he wants, to the extent agreed upon in a future arbitration agreement. Any suggestions that would cause a large upheaval would probably receive more scrutiny than solutions that tend toward stability and a boring status quo. YMMV.

 

[Bill Brasky]

Mr. Nicolau has done as much to ruin the profession of arbitrators as the westies have to ruin the field of professional aviation.  I'm betting that others in their field would want to set the record straight.
 
In EVERY recent case discussion concerning the fairness of arbitrations that I've read, the US-AWA Nic award is cited as how bad and unfair arbitrations can be.

 

[electricjet98]

Mr. Nicolau has done as much to ruin the profession of arbitrators as the westies have to ruin the field of professional aviation.  I'm betting that others in their field would want to set the record straight.
 
In EVERY recent case discussion concerning the fairness of arbitrations that I've read, the US-AWA Nic award is cited as how bad and unfair arbitrations can be.

Then why are you easties wetting yourselves at the meer thought of an independent west pilot group presenting the Nic?

 

[Bill Brasky]

Then why are you easties wetting yourselves at the meer thought of an independent west pilot group presenting the Nic?

Actually, we're not.  It just wouldn't be legal, since it is SPECIFICALLY addressed in the M/B law.  We already saw just how bad some arbitrations can be, why would anyone risk that again?  At least with only two lists, per Judge Silver, there are only 2 groups to merge, reducing the potential screw-job rate by 1/3.  
 
Personally, I could care less.  It's the law that's against the idea. I don't know why you think it would help your cause.  

 

[fifidriver]

Oh...  Is there a "professional" way to scrape a tail, taxi a wingtip into a rudder or splash an aircraft with an operating engine into the water?    kma bb.