2014 Pilot Discussion

[electricjet98]

"a fair process" with only the APA having any power over it? THAT'S what "you'se" actually want to see happen? Whew! I'm left just shaking my head in utter disbelief. No matter. Thanks again for all the chuckles. 😉

Isn't that precisely what USAPA prescribed for the west pilots? Sans even the opinion of neutral arbitrators?

Your hypocrisy is painfully evident!

 

[Phoenix]

...

Regarding "any other source(s)"...who could claim failure of DFR by APA (and also collusion by the New American) if "a seniority integration process consistent with McCaskill-Bond", such as independent merger committees advocating for their group before a panel of neutral arbitrators?
 
 

 
 
MB is a statute, and compliance with it is not optional.  DFR is a far different animal.  The threshold to prove a breach of either is far different.   

 

[snapthis]

Do the math metro. The Nicolau would have locked several thousand East pilots off the widebody stuff. That quarter million you say was lost has already been re ordered with lots of upgrades, and many of them to wide bodies. A small price to pay, which will be recouped in just a few years.
Your assessment is extremely short sighted. In fact, it is the West guys now who are denied the widebodies, upgrades. They are now paying their own personal LOA 93 tax, imposed by the shortsighted actions of Leonidas. That quarter million figure, suspicious to start with, will be supplanted by MILLIONS of W2 in the future. Your loss.

 
It has been Leonidas who protected the jobs from Usapians who wanted to take the whole pie. If it was not for people like Ferguson, we'd probably have surrendered our jobs to as a result of your greed.
 
This injustice will be corrected. We'll take our positions as a result of arbitration once we rid ourselves of the USAPA problem.
 
Your loss.

 

[Phoenix]

Isn't that precisely what USAPA prescribed for the west pilots? Sans even the opinion of neutral arbitrators?

Your hypocrisy is painfully evident!

 
 
The West Class has never been a CBA.  The West Class has adamantly refused to participate in negotiations.   The West Class has adamantly argued there is NO ONE that can legally represent them and act as a negotiator on their behalf.  The West Class has adamantly argued that MB cannot be employed in their dispute.   Judge Silver said the West Class is right.

 

[electricjet98]

MB is a statute, and compliance with it is not optional.  DFR is a far different animal.  The threshold to prove a breach of either is far different.

Unless waived by mutually accepted contract allowing SCS and "MB Lite" prior to SLI.

 

[Piedmont1984]

Did those pilot groups vote on a contract (MOU) that specified SCS and JCBA prior to SLI? Did any of the CBA's for the pilot groups have their attorney successfully argue in Federal Court that only the CBA can represent the pilot groups...no interlopers allowed?

The MOU does not specify SCS prior to SLI. The MOU says up to 4 months to petition the NMB (APA jumped on it immediately) and then 6-8 months for a decision. No linkage to SLI that I am aware.

USAPA IS the CBA representing us, at this very moment - and the the merger process HAS already begun. What Silver is extrapolating from Szymanski's argument is that notwithstanding a CBA (USAPA) began the merger process, it must remove itself midway through the process at the moment the NMB announces SCS. The MOU does not say that. It refers only to ceding JCBA bargaining authority. Silver contradicts both MOU and federal law.

 

[Phoenix]

 
It has been Leonidas who protected the jobs from Usapians who wanted to take the whole pie. If it was not for people like Ferguson, we'd probably have surrendered our jobs to as a result of your greed.
 
This injustice will be corrected. We'll take our positions as a result of arbitration once we rid ourselves of the USAPA problem.
 
Your loss.

 
 
After you guys prevail and get all your damages and stuff, can you buy me a $675 tie as a consolation?

 

[Phoenix]

Unless waived by mutually accepted contract allowing SCS and "MB Lite" prior to SLI.

 
 
Obviously no "mutual waiving" happened, unless you are referring to the "middle finger" all sides are mutually waving at easy other.  Parker couldn't be more pleased.   

 

[end_of_alpa]

Seems to me Jamie that the contract waived any protection provided explicitly by the statute..."A seniority integration process consistent with McCaskill-Bond". IOW, a fair process will be provided by the singular CBA, such as independent committees advocating for their own group and equally funded by the surviving CBA. Similar to what would have been provided by actual McCaskill-Bond and separate CBA's had we not accepted SCS prior to SLI in our MOU.

Seems to me that this discussion is pointless.  I really do not know what point your trying to make.  Simply more Leonidas hypotheticals that will just have to die on the vine.  The MOU incorporates M-B by reference.  Again, read the Eischen Arbitration.  I'm finished wasting my time.  APA, USAPA and the Company are the only legal parties under M-B.
 
Back to doing something productive.

 

[Piedmont1984]

Seems to me Jamie that the contract waived any protection provided explicitly by the statute..."A seniority integration process consistent with McCaskill-Bond". IOW, a fair process will be provided by the singular CBA, such as independent committees advocating for their own group and equally funded by the surviving CBA. Similar to what would have been provided by actual McCaskill-Bond and separate CBA's had we not accepted SCS prior to SLI in our MOU.

Do you not find it ironic, given APA merger history, that they are presumed to have the capacity to oversee a fair process? What union was the sole reason for McCaskill-Bond in the first place? BTW, there is no DFR liability if it goes to arbitration. The questions are, what will the committee look like that represents the LCC pilots and how many committees will participate if APA is in charge?

 

[Freighterguynow]

 
This injustice will be corrected. We'll take our positions as a result of arbitration once we rid ourselves of the USAPA problem.
 
Your loss.

you got what - something to the tune of 6 positions on the 757?

We've got 26 vacancies for new hires right now. Fill out an application - you'll be better off.

 

[electricjet98]

The West Class has never been a CBA.

Sure it was, or at least autonomy from east demands while under ALPA. But when you wanted to create USAPA you argued against ALPA's argument to not declare SCS...and completely reversing your argument now. Dang, there is hypocrisy thingy again!

The West Class has adamantly refused to participate in negotiations.

Ummmm...that would be the four wolves and two lambs negotiating what is for dinner?

The West Class has adamantly argued there is NO ONE that can legally represent them and act as a negotiator on their behalf.

Negotiate? with a group that has proven themselves untrustworthy?

The West Class has adamantly argued that MB cannot be employed in their dispute.   Judge Silver said the West Class is right.

First choice would have been a favorable outcome regarding DFR. Without a SLI to compare with the Nic, we're left with arbitration in front of a panel of neutrals. Why does our representing ourselves and arguing before a panel of neutrals that has you so threatened...you know, if the Nic is dead?

 

[electricjet98]

Do you not find it ironic, given APA merger history, that they are presumed to have the capacity to oversee a fair process? What union was the sole reason for McCaskill-Bond in the first place?

Like I asked earlier...what DFR did APA owe TWA pilots prior to them becoming the CBA for those pilots?
 
 

BTW, there is no DFR liability if it goes to arbitration. The questions are, what will the committee look like that represents the LCC pilots and how many committees will participate if APA is in charge?

Where do you get this stuff, KV? DFR is "Duty to Fairly Represent", precisely what the Merger Committee is doing before the panel of arbitrators...representing their pilots. Maybe you're confusing that with "seeking to escape liability"...like what USAPA would like to do by immediately riding off into the sunset after failing their DFR to west pilots and leave APA (or perhaps no one?) holding the bag. Damn, there's that hypocrisy thingy again!

Gotta sign-off...red-eye into CLT and all.

 

[Phoenix]

Hat tip to EndOfAlpa..
 
http://www.unbiasedfacts.org/Frontier-Republic-PilotSeniorityIntegrationArbitrationAward.pdf
 
RAH, ALPA, and perhaps some of the other Parties, continue to dispute whether,
or to what extent, the terms and conditions of the ALPA/Midwest CBA retain vitality, and upon
whom that particular Agreement is binding and enforceable. However, as noted supra, the
contested legal, contractual and administrative issues in that particular dispute are beyond the
proper reach of the jurisdiction and authority granted me under the terms of the DRA that
governs this seniority list integration proceeding.

 

[Phoenix]

Like I asked earlier...what DFR did APA owe TWA pilots prior to them becoming the CBA for those pilots?
 
 

 
DFR has noting to do with the MB statute.