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2014 Pilot Discussion

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nevergiveup said:
So exactly how many east pilots were displaced to PHX?
Exactly...and when it was all said and done, how many passed on recall??? Closing LAS and drawing down PHX has nothing to do with us. That is a management decision. Choosing to remain on furlough and fight it out for the NIC is a West decision.
 
AAviator said:
Ok,
No one has to affirm the NIC.  You agree'd to binding arbitration and the arbitrator ruled.
 
Unless USAPA manufactured a bill of good they're trying to sell.
 
Am I close?
 
Still looking for the vowel..
U

Usapian mindset:

Ok, we agreed to binding arbitration, in our opinion, it did not go our way. Uh oh, what to do what to do? Hey, we got this guy Bradford who met with an attorney who cautioned, "Don't give the other side a large body of evidence that the sole reason for the new union is to abrogate an arbitration, the Nicolau award, that in the opinions of most judges, should be allowed to stand due to no gross negligence or fraud."

A Conversation with an Attorney
KEEP THIS INFORMATION CONFIDENTIAL

On Saturday, June 9th in San Francisco I had a conversation regarding our case with Chris Katzenbach of Katzenbach and Khitikan, a labor law firm.

Katzenbach and Khitikan have done some NMB work primarily with the American Eagle pilots group and they helpd them set up a 501C3 non-profit format to hold the Eagle Pilots independent union which is involved in an organizing campaign to oust ALPA from that property.

In commenting on our case he said that as an outsider he really had to hand it to the opposing counsel in the final brief for the America West Pilots. He understands, in some respects, the issues involving airline seniority. He said however that to an outsider the America West brief was very convincing and easy to follow. This doesn't make it right or more fair, it's just an easier to follow and better presentation to follow than the Katz presentation. The America West brief, appears a least on the surface, to be more in line with the stated new ALPA merger policy. It ignores past president but if you only have the current policy as a point of reference then their argument seems more in tune with it.

Chris Katzenbach feels that a direct assault on this award in the courts is a looser. The courts don't want to be educated on the minutia of this case or any other complicated private matter. The courts only concern is if there is fraud or bribery or some other gross misconduct in the conduct of this arbitration. If pressed they would take a case like that but he feels it to be a looser. It would also probably require a substantial down payment up front to pursue. By the way their fees are very reasonable, $275.00 per billable hour.

I next specifically asked him about the formation of a new bargaining agent as an avenue of advance to get around this award. He says that it is entirely possible. The key the courts look for is not the private squabbles, procedures and methodologies between unions and their nationals, the facts of the collective bargaining agreement. The CBA is the defining argument in a case to the courts. The Railway Labor Act /National Mediation Board procedure and policy above all governs.

"Could the America West pilots sue us" I asked, "if we pursue this course of action." "Yes", he said however Duty of Fair representation suits are losers, Katzenbach and Khitikan sued ALPA for the American Eagle Pilots over their current contract which among other things had a 20 year no strike clause. The contract was a negotiating committee cram down to keep from having the Eagle flying farmed out and allowing for the American equivalent version of "jets for jobs" and "flow through." Does this sound familiar?? As a result of this contract the Eagle pilots are trying to get out of ALPA.

Chris said the contract was truly piece of "####" but because it was negotiated by the duly elected negotiating committee it would stand in court. They lost big-time and that's that. So to answer the question, yes you can be sued but they must prove fraud or other really gross violations of law to have the suit stand up. However, he cautioned, the language you use in setting up your new union and how you go about talking and writing about your solutions to this award can be used against you. You need to stress he positives of the new union and not dwell on the award. Don't give the other side a large body of evidence that the sole reason for the new union is to abrogate an arbitration, the Nicolau award, that in the opinions of most judges, should be allowed to stand due to no gross negligence or fraud.

In a ruling by the NLRB, not the NMB, in 1954, stated: Seniority status in mergers must be resolved between the the employer and the union not by the union unilaterally. 107 NLRB 837;225F.2nd.343. That is to say seniority lives in the collective bargaining agreement not inside the unions. It will cost some more money to find if there is an equivalent ruling in a case by the NMB, but Chris feels there most certainly is.

A study and roadmap of the case law based on the premise that a new bargaining agent can get around the award and make the Nicolau award moot will cost 5 to 7 billable hours, so about $1925 with this firm.

When I stated that our Chairman Doug Parker had expressed an interest in industry consolidation he replied "well you know this process can work in reverse". That is, if we had a merger with United then even before there was an arbitration process the United pilots would petition the NMB for "single carrier status" and we could find ourselves back in the same position as we are now, inside ALPA. The Nicolau award won't die until ALPA dies. If there are mergers down the road then the award can come back if ALPA does. Seniority lives in the CBA so you need a new contract to go with the new union to solidify your claims. Can something be put in the contact to protect these claims, I asked. "That question will require a lot of research". Katzenbach and Khitikan seem to be competent in this area although they are not experts in Railway Labor Act /
NMB law. Chris stated that there are very few firms who specialize in RLA/NMB law, it's a very small portion of labor law pie.

This consultation is not free, they don't do that with this kind of case, but they have low rates ie, $275/hr. My name is the one given so I will pony up on this meeting and the firm will supply a resume of their qualifications to do this kind of law and a recap and their opinions on what was discussed and I will forward that information when I get it so that all can see what type of law firm this is and if we want to do business with them in the future.

Respectfully Submitted,

an aaapilots4fairness committee member
 
We'll form USAPA, we'll go to Phoenix and tell the pilots about the tyranny of the majority. Now, they find themselves in the minority, they don't want AA giving them a taste of their own medicine.

Source:
S Fenske
"The two pilots groups have been so far apart on the issue that they hired a mediator to help them talk then serve as an impartial arbiter when mediation failed.George Nicolau, who's worked for both the airline industry and Major League Baseball, was suggested by the East pilots. When the West pilots acquiesced, both sides agreed that his verdict would be final and binding.

For 18 days, Nicolau listened to testimony from both sets of pilots. It soon became clear, West pilots say, that the East-based pilots were unwilling to negotiate. It was date-of-hire or nothing.

"Mann, who assisted the West pilots during previous merger talks and during the seniority negotiations, was stunned by the East pilots' attitude. "I've done a lot of these," he says. "And this was just the most extreme intransigence I've ever seen."

In May 2007, Nicolau issued his decree on how seniority should be handled. Suffice it to say, it wasn't based strictly on date-of-hire; he'd crafted a compromise that weighed a host of factors.

That should have been it; the two parties had agreed at the beginning that the Nicolau award was to be binding, final, and all those words that mean it can't be challenged or changed or compromised.

The East pilots, though, had other plans.

Screw the "binding" bit. Surely, it applied only to the union that had agreed to arbitration.

What if they were to start a new union? Then, surely, Nicolau wouldn't count.

Then they could start from scratch.

The West guys say they, too, had their complaints about Nicolau's award. "Nobody on our side was happy with it," says Braid, a pilot who came up through the America West system. "They're calling him 'St. Nick,' like he gave us a gift." Not so, Braid says it's more that the West pilots understood the process had been fair, that no one was going to get everything they wanted. Unlike the East guys, they'd come in knowing that they'd have to compromise.

Plus, there was the principle of the thing.

"We knew whatever [Nicolau] came out with, we had to live with," says fellow West pilot Szmal. "We took that chance."

Unfortunately for the West pilots, though, they'd be forced to join the new union whether they wanted to or not.

And because there were twice as many East pilots, as long as they stood united, they didn't really need a single West pilot's support to break away and require the West guys to pay dues to an organization that had been formed, in essence, to screw them over.

The East guys selling the new union made just one trip to Phoenix to discuss their plans an effort they quickly abandoned under intense questioning from West pilots. The meeting is enshrined in a series of 15 YouTube videos, titled "Can't Take the Heat." (Some of the videos have been viewed more than 4,000 times.)

Already, West pilots were convinced they were getting the shaft. Several made it clear that they would not pay dues, or participate, in the new union.

"I believe [forming a new union] is the quickest way to a new contract and, eventually, unity," one of the East pilots told the assembled pilots.

"Never!" the West pilots cried. "No way!"

"Now," the East pilot continued, "Many of you have told us that you prefer anarchy, and you will not pay dues to us, and you'll undermine us."

"You're undermining ALPA," one West pilot angrily retorted.

"You're fundamentally undermining us!" another shouted.

Toward the end of the meeting, a West pilot asked what would happen if the West pilots refuse to pay dues to the new union. Sure, technically, they could get fired. But, the pilot asked, "Would you think that [US Airways CEO] Doug Parker would just fire 1,800 pilots? Would they lay us off?"

"They could," the would-be union leader replied.

The union organizers had originally planned to stay until 4 p.m., but the meeting grew so toxic, they left more than two hours early.

"What about a closing statement?" one West pilot called as they prepared to go. "Tell us why I need to vote for you."

"Are you guys going to walk out?" another West pilot shouted.

"Sorry, guys," the East pilot said.

"It's not four o'clock yet!" a West pilot shouted."


The clock has struck midnight. It's time for USAPA to exit the stage and a real union come to the plate.
 
Bottom line, we form a new union, write the rules and then rewrite the rules to attempt to evade previous agreements. We don't want arbitration and we don't want West pilots to have a voice because an arbitrator may conclude the previous arbitrator got it right.

Usapians don't want to take that chance. They have zero integrity.
 
Res Judicata said:
I'd fear Karma if I were you.
 
I'd likely fear my own shadow if I were "you'se". VERY thankfully, I'm not you. Wallow in all those sad delusions so long as it suits your twisted needs. You've my honest sympathy for your unfortunate condition. You can choose to get help for your problems, or not.  Your choice.
 
traderjake said:
You want to steal American jobs just like you want to steal West jobs.
 
Making an East NB Captain senior to an American WB Captain is stealing that WB  Captain's job.
 
Keep begging APA to negotiate, it ain't gonna work.
Traitor, you are by far the biggest scum and liar like your best friend Chippy on this board, you know my position show me one post where I said that.. I'll say it again DOH with C and R, and a nice long fence to protect the AA wide body jobs , we have no right to them, that's what they brought to this merge. If you can't keep up I suggest you get off this board.

Also remember we turned over about 27% of OUR flying to them, talk about saving jobs.
 
A320 Driver said:
That's BS and you know it. Not ONE West pilot lost his job to an East pilot. NOT ONE. Unlike the bump and flush that has been discussed here by others should West prevail in court. The West could have prospered with everyone else had they not demanded the NIC and endorsed the company in their position to keep us on LOA93 for as long as possible.
 
You're a disgrace and a blatant liar.
Everyone has you pegged Traitor.
 
A320 Driver said:
That's BS and you know it. Not ONE West pilot lost his job to an East pilot. NOT ONE. Unlike the bump and flush that has been discussed here by others should West prevail in court. The West could have prospered with everyone else had they not demanded the NIC and endorsed the company in their position to keep us on LOA93 for as long as possible.
 
You're a disgrace and a blatant liar.
Everyone has you pegged Traitor.
nycbusdriver said:
Well, yes.  You advocated DOH for determining where the westie should sit.  I think that has been the whole point of the east arguement for the last 9 years.
 
Also, I have been maintaining that there would be no fences allowed between east and west former-LCC.  I can't imagine any arbitration panel trying to issue "protections" within LCC.  Their job would be to merge LCC and AAL, and protections between those two groups are to be expected.
. No east pilot I know has a problem with this except Traitor.
 
snapthis said:
"You're undermining ALPA," one West pilot angrily retorted.

"You're fundamentally undermining us!" another shouted.

 
"Are you guys going to walk out?" another West pilot shouted.

"It's not four o'clock yet!" a West pilot shouted."

 
 
Perhaps some slight degree of attempted thought, versus just infantile shouting, might have served your "I hate all of you'se" elegant ladies and fine gentlemen a bit better. 😉 I wouldn't have wasted my time even being in the same room with such a pack of disgustingly ill-mannered children. How those guys put up with your adolescent crap for as long as they did still amazes me.
 
luvthe9 said:
Everyone has you pegged Traitor.
 
APA is not going to buy your DOH with "nice protections" lies but keep begging if you want.
 
Don't forget to remind the arbitration panel that Nicolau was a senile old man who got it wrong.
 
You should be embarrassed by the dumb stuff you post.
 
traderjake said:
 
APA is not going to buy your DOH lies but keep begging if you want.
 
The APA would very much like to staple you to the bottom of their shoe soles. Keep licking them as much as you feel the need to fool.
 
AAviator said:
I have no idea what you're talking about..
 
I am not an LCC pilot.
 
 
luvthe9 said:
Suggest, you get up to speed on the last at least 15 years here.
Keep in mind, you are talking with this guy. I'll introduce you to Courtney. Hired in 1999, furloughed after a couple of years, returning in 2007. Phoenix commuter who scored political points with former Usapian Prez, Mike Cleary. He sniffed around Phoenix, reporting back to the Fuhrer.
 
He has been banned from handing out pizza and Usapian propaganda to new hires at the Phoenix training facility.
 
So, you see him here, portraying West pilots as the wide-body grabbing pilots when in reality, it's the opportunist depicted here who's wide-body appetite is unsatisfied.
 
View attachment 10077
 
Courtney Luv
 
traderjake said:
APA is not going to buy your DOH lies but keep begging if you want.
If they don't so be it, I''ll be a very senior 777 capt. while displacing an AA pilot, are you OK with that? Now that's stealing a job.
 
snapthis said:
Keep in mind, you are talking with this guy. I'll introduce you to Courtney. Hired in 1999, furloughed after a couple of years, returning in 2007. Phoenix commuter who scored political points with former Usapian Prez, Mike Cleary. He sniffed around Phoenix, reporting back to the Fuhrer.
 
He has been banned from handing out pizza and Usapian propaganda to new hires at the Phoenix training facility.
 
So, you see him here, portraying West pilots as the wide-body grabbing pilots when in reality, it's the opportunist depicted here who's wide-body appetite is unsatisfied.
 
attachicon.gif
courtneyB.gif
 
Courtney Luv
You keep showing us all your stupidity, good thing your not a detective SPINTHIS.
 
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