2014 Pilot Discussion

[algflyr]

USAPA has its leg caught in a trap of their own design – I believe it’s either time to start chewing or agree to APA and AAG’s proposed Protocol Agreement with a 3-way ISL arbitration. If not..then we can expect to receive a court order permitting APA to exclusively control the ISL process, if so desired, per the RLA and Judge Silver’s order. 

 
320,
 
I notice you often post and then never follow up addressing the questions generated by your post. I realize you often get remarks directed at you instead of your post, and I probably wouldn't respond to some of that nature as well. However, if you truly wish to debate the topics you bring up with your fellow pilots on this forum, then you should address legitimate questions asked of you. That's how you make people see things differently. Anyway, I found a lot of things I question in your post, but I will not take the time to address them if you most likely will not respond to them... However, I will ask you one related to the above portion of your post:
 
You stated that if USAPA doesn't agree, we can expect a court order permitting the APA to have exclusive control over the seniority integration... Do you really think that?
 
The M-B was a direct result of a larger group (the American Flight Attendants) basically controlling and subsequently stapling a smaller group (TWA Flight Attendants) during Seniority Integration. While the APA basically did the same thing, the M-B legislation was the result of the Flight Attendant actions, just FYI for most on here that think it was due to the pilots...
 
So if what you are saying is true, M-B basically will never be used. If a larger union can always control the process, why have the legislation?
 
Let's pretend American were to buy Alaska Airlines tomorrow. And let's say the DOJ approves it. American is much larger than Alaska. The APA will petition the NMB for single carrier and subsequently become the single union and will 100% control the seniority integration with Alaska. The Alaska union will have no say in it at all. Do you really think that would happen? Do you think that's how the RLA defines how it should happen? Why have M-B? Seems like a useless piece of legislation.
 
Any response would be appreciated, you'll only get genuine debate on the subject from me...

 

[algflyr]

 
The probationary year is a contractual agreement, as it still is today.  Once training was successfully completed, you were hired as an employee and were on the payroll as such.

 
Except it's no longer a year probation...
 
The contract says probation will last the LESSER of 12 months OR 400 hours worked. I'm sure all our new hires are going on reserve and are easily getting 400 hours (and thus no longer on probation) well before 12 months goes by... 

 

[traderjake]

As far as DOH zealots go, ANSWER THIS QUESTION:  WHY IS US AIRWAYS PILOTS TIME WORTH LESS THAN APA TIME?  Put another way, if time has no meaning why not hire Republic/Envoy pilots and make them Captains after the first year so the company can pay them 2 year pay over your 12 year pay?

 
5 years and end_of_alpa still doesn't understand the difference between seniority and longevity or that a 7 year Captain position is worth more than a 17 year F/O position. 

 

[luvthe9]

You are a nutjob.  GFYS SCAB!

The FBI new it after the failed polygraph.

 

[snapthis]

The FBI new it after the failed polygraph.

I know the difference between new and knew.

So, what does the FBI no?

 

[end_of_alpa]

5 years and end_of_alpa still doesn't understand the difference between seniority and longevity or that a 7 year Captain position is worth more than a 17 year F/O position.

Blacks 9th Law Dictionary

seniority. (15c) 1. The preferential status, privileges, or rights given to an employee based on the employee's length of service with an employer. ● Employees with seniority may receive additional or enhanced benefit packages and obtain competitive advantages over fellow employees in layoff and promotional decisions. 2. The status of being older or senior.

seniority system. Employment law. Any arrangement that recognizes length of service in making decisions about job layoffs and promotions or other advancements.

dovetail seniority. The combination of seniority lists from merging companies into one list that allows employees to keep their premerger seniority.


Seniority
Seniority systems give preference to employees who have been with the employer, profession or job for the longest period of time. Those with higher seniority have first choice of desirable shifts, transfers and assignments. Seniority can be used to determine promotions. Union contracts sometimes base employment protection on seniority, laying off those with lower seniority before those with greater seniority.

Longevity Pay
Longevity pay is based on duration of employment. Employers have the option of adding performance or merit bonuses to the base longevity pay.

Similarities
Longevity pay and seniority are commonly used by unions and for government service employees. Longevity pay can also be used to give higher pay to those who have earned seniority in a lower pay grade.

Read more: http://www.ehow.com/facts_7561343_differences-seniority-longevity-pay.html#ixzz2yPTrtasF

You're wrong Dan. Go lick you're wounds.

 

[end_of_alpa]

320,
 
I notice you often post and then never follow up addressing the questions generated by your post. I realize you often get remarks directed at you instead of your post, and I probably wouldn't respond to some of that nature as well. However, if you truly wish to debate the topics you bring up with your fellow pilots on this forum, then you should address legitimate questions asked of you. That's how you make people see things differently. Anyway, I found a lot of things I question in your post, but I will not take the time to address them if you most likely will not respond to them... However, I will ask you one related to the above portion of your post:
 
You stated that if USAPA doesn't agree, we can expect a court order permitting the APA to have exclusive control over the seniority integration... Do you really think that?
 
The M-B was a direct result of a larger group (the American Flight Attendants) basically controlling and subsequently stapling a smaller group (TWA Flight Attendants) during Seniority Integration. While the APA basically did the same thing, the M-B legislation was the result of the Flight Attendant actions, just FYI for most on here that think it was due to the pilots...
 
So if what you are saying is true, M-B basically will never be used. If a larger union can always control the process, why have the legislation?
 
Let's pretend American were to buy Alaska Airlines tomorrow. And let's say the DOJ approves it. American is much larger than Alaska. The APA will petition the NMB for single carrier and subsequently become the single union and will 100% control the seniority integration with Alaska. The Alaska union will have no say in it at all. Do you really think that would happen? Do you think that's how the RLA defines how it should happen? Why have M-B? Seems like a useless piece of legislation.
 
Any response would be appreciated, you'll only get genuine debate on the subject from me...

Good luck getting a logical well thought out by the coward Chip Munn.

 

[Beancounter]

Except it's no longer a year probation...
 
The contract says probation will last the LESSER of 12 months OR 400 hours worked. I'm sure all our new hires are going on reserve and are easily getting 400 hours (and thus no longer on probation) well before 12 months goes by...

I don't know, I remember walking into the Chief Pilot's office after 2 months of not flying and asking for a trip. I flew to SFO, sat for a day, then flew back. 737 flying on a beautiful Southern California day, doesn't get much better.

If anyone needs a laugh, I bumped into a United pilot outside flying. He asked me if I was really an American pilot or if I was US Airways. I told him, I really wasn't a US Airways pilot, I was a America West pilot. He then informed me he was third generation United. I said, " oh really, that's cool, how much time and what kind of experience did you have when you got hired?" Boy did that shut him up, he wouldn't say, but I'm guessing about a third of what I had when hired at AWA. Anyway, I thought it was funny. Snooty, but funny.

Bean

 

[end_of_alpa]

Good luck getting a logical well thought out by the coward Chip Munn.

Good luck getting a logical well thought out "response" by the coward Chip Munn.

 

[traderjake]

You're wrong Dan. Go lick you're wounds.

 
The last 4 pilot seniority arbitrations say I'm right and you're wrong. 
 
Don't forget to bring your dictionary at the MB arbitration.

 

[Zone5]

5 years and end_of_alpa still doesn't understand the difference between seniority and longevity or that a 7 year Captain position is worth more than a 17 year F/O position.

Is a 26 year Pilot who bids to be a block holding WB F/O "junior" to a 1 year reserve 190 Captain?

I'm so confused about my "seniority". Please help!


seajay

 

[end_of_alpa]

 
The last 4 pilot seniority arbitrations say I'm right and you're wrong. 
 
Don't forget to bring your dictionary at the MB arbitration.

Name them.

 

[luvthe9]

Is a 26 year Pilot who bids to be a block holding WB F/O "junior" to a 1 year reserve 190 Captain?
I'm so confused about my "seniority". Please help!
seajay

You wasting your time by are arguing with one of Munn minions.

 

[end_of_alpa]

 
The last 4 pilot seniority arbitrations say I'm right and you're wrong. 
 
Don't forget to bring your dictionary at the MB arbitration.

Still won't provide the names of the "arbitrations".

 

[traderjake]

Is a 26 year Pilot who bids to be a block holding WB F/O "junior" to a 1 year reserve 190 Captain?

 
A 7 year Captain position is worth more than a 17 year F/O position on the same category airplane.