wrong.....total outsource was the alternative....take it or leave it.
...---... 😉
bob , with all due respect.....buzzoff
you weren't there...didn't enjoy the horrors.....close the barn door bob the horses are gone. :down:
A different Teamster contract.
- Thread starter gonzo
- Start date
...---... 😉
bob , with all due respect.....buzzoff
you weren't there...didn't enjoy the horrors.....close the barn door bob the horses are gone. :down:
allunionsdeceive
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there was a choose as you just stated. the IAM now outsources.
Phantom Fixer
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To AllUnions and Piney Bob,
First of all the IAM does not "Outsource" The IAM represents the Unionized Workers of USAirways East...nothing more , nothing less.
Secondly..The IAM did a pretty fair job of representing the majority of its memebers during the course of 2 horrible trips through Chapter 11.
The IAM never capitulated a thing to the company in regards to outsourcing any work on Heavy Maintenance. The IAM held a firm stance on the subject..and forced this issue to binding arbitraition..which the IAM won hands down.
Sadly...The IAM lost part of the battle by losing 50% of the Heavy work on the B737-300/400 Fleet..and all of the work on the B767-200ER's , A330-300's and the B757-200's..but retained 100% of the A319 , A320 and A321's (The FUTURE of Mainline U )..and the remaining 50% of the B737-300/400's.
Saying that the IAM lost...is a gross overstatement , The IAM didn't lose...IT WAS ROBBED !! by a BK Judge whom has been in the Corporate Worlds Hip Pocket during the entire course of the 2 BK processes. No other Unionized Group has endured what U's IAM Memebership has...and still maintained a vast majority of what it sought to protect.
AMFA's attempts at NW...has led to wholesale slaughter of its work and membership by any comparison.
The IBT is to date un-tested at HP , now US..and how can any one assume that they will garner any better than what we have...when it was never contested from the start. Lets remember the words of Crellin and Doug Parker within the last two weeks in regards to what happens if the IBT wins , Shall we ?
DL's Un-Represented Employee's in my opinion are in for a "Blood-Bath"...as the 14% that DL got from DL's ALPA represented Pilots is going to fall far short of what DL actually wants and needs to survive. DL has already carved up jobs in DFW , TPA and more pain is coming for them...Mark My Words on this.
The IAM at U is guilty of a few things..and poor communication with its actual Members is the first and foremost issue that comes to mind...but as far as taking a stand , short of actions that would have tossed U into Chapter 7 Liquidation (The Companies Expressed Threat on countless occassions)...They have done a pretty darn good job against un-imaginable odds.
Just keep in mind...First and Foremost , The Judge in Alexandria , Va. (Judge Mitchell)...had but one obligation in this process..and that was to U's creditors , not its employee's...so ruling in favor of something , "that on paper" looked like a cost savings to the company , became his only narrow minded and ill-advised option in his minds eye.
By and large Piney...your nose is way too far into something that does not affect or impact you in any manner whatsoever...This is not about the price of your ticket , the chill of your beverage...or the cushion cleanliness of your assigned seat. So to make short of this my opinionated friend...Pipe-down and Butt-Out as this does not involve your financial future , comforts or Safety in any fashion. Beyond the issue of providing Safe , Reliable and Pleasant Air Travel. Nobody within the confines of this company or its layers of Unions owes you anything beyond our heartfelt thanks for flying us.
BTW...Please make us all aware of whom signs your checks...and direct us to a website where your personal issues can be raked over the coals too...I've got some spare time coming...and I'd love to poke my nose into your business for sport too. 😛
First of all the IAM does not "Outsource" The IAM represents the Unionized Workers of USAirways East...nothing more , nothing less.
Secondly..The IAM did a pretty fair job of representing the majority of its memebers during the course of 2 horrible trips through Chapter 11.
The IAM never capitulated a thing to the company in regards to outsourcing any work on Heavy Maintenance. The IAM held a firm stance on the subject..and forced this issue to binding arbitraition..which the IAM won hands down.
Sadly...The IAM lost part of the battle by losing 50% of the Heavy work on the B737-300/400 Fleet..and all of the work on the B767-200ER's , A330-300's and the B757-200's..but retained 100% of the A319 , A320 and A321's (The FUTURE of Mainline U )..and the remaining 50% of the B737-300/400's.
Saying that the IAM lost...is a gross overstatement , The IAM didn't lose...IT WAS ROBBED !! by a BK Judge whom has been in the Corporate Worlds Hip Pocket during the entire course of the 2 BK processes. No other Unionized Group has endured what U's IAM Memebership has...and still maintained a vast majority of what it sought to protect.
AMFA's attempts at NW...has led to wholesale slaughter of its work and membership by any comparison.
The IBT is to date un-tested at HP , now US..and how can any one assume that they will garner any better than what we have...when it was never contested from the start. Lets remember the words of Crellin and Doug Parker within the last two weeks in regards to what happens if the IBT wins , Shall we ?
DL's Un-Represented Employee's in my opinion are in for a "Blood-Bath"...as the 14% that DL got from DL's ALPA represented Pilots is going to fall far short of what DL actually wants and needs to survive. DL has already carved up jobs in DFW , TPA and more pain is coming for them...Mark My Words on this.
The IAM at U is guilty of a few things..and poor communication with its actual Members is the first and foremost issue that comes to mind...but as far as taking a stand , short of actions that would have tossed U into Chapter 7 Liquidation (The Companies Expressed Threat on countless occassions)...They have done a pretty darn good job against un-imaginable odds.
Just keep in mind...First and Foremost , The Judge in Alexandria , Va. (Judge Mitchell)...had but one obligation in this process..and that was to U's creditors , not its employee's...so ruling in favor of something , "that on paper" looked like a cost savings to the company , became his only narrow minded and ill-advised option in his minds eye.
By and large Piney...your nose is way too far into something that does not affect or impact you in any manner whatsoever...This is not about the price of your ticket , the chill of your beverage...or the cushion cleanliness of your assigned seat. So to make short of this my opinionated friend...Pipe-down and Butt-Out as this does not involve your financial future , comforts or Safety in any fashion. Beyond the issue of providing Safe , Reliable and Pleasant Air Travel. Nobody within the confines of this company or its layers of Unions owes you anything beyond our heartfelt thanks for flying us.
BTW...Please make us all aware of whom signs your checks...and direct us to a website where your personal issues can be raked over the coals too...I've got some spare time coming...and I'd love to poke my nose into your business for sport too. 😛
Dell, What do we have now ? A contract virtually of the companies choosing.
I would of rather made the dis-honorable judge Mitchell impose a contract on the membership.
If it would be too lousy of an offer, Then the membership should of taken the whole mess down. This would take some backbone from both the union and membership.
Like you said, We'll never know.
your opinion does not speak for the masses who are/were afraid.....i hold to your position but on the other hand i have sympathy for those who do not have the stones....me,i'm single and can/could take a huge chance...but for the guy/gal who have a family....when and where do you put their security on the line???
thats the motivation behind what is/has been accepted...do i agree....NO.....but i do not judge a person until i walk a mile in their moccasin's.
take care, 😉
320tech
Senior
The IBT is to date un-tested at HP , now US..and how can any one assume that they will garner any better than what we have...when it was never contested from the start. Lets remember the words of Crellin and Doug Parker within the last two weeks in regards to what happens if the IBT wins , Shall we ?
The IBT has been tested at awa they tried to down size CMH over 3 years ago and use contract mx to work our flights and we won the company was forced to man all shifts and cover our flights with our techs. our contract says no work done in house can be contracted out period! and as for what Doug Parker has said its funny he told us a different story to us! they will tell any group what they want to hear. the only thing that will happen is that all work done in house will stay in house and we will have to fight to bring any plane brought back in through negotiations, and I can promise you that Doug will fight to have plane heavy checks out who ever wins the vote.
The IBT has been tested at awa they tried to down size CMH over 3 years ago and use contract mx to work our flights and we won the company was forced to man all shifts and cover our flights with our techs. our contract says no work done in house can be contracted out period! and as for what Doug Parker has said its funny he told us a different story to us! they will tell any group what they want to hear. the only thing that will happen is that all work done in house will stay in house and we will have to fight to bring any plane brought back in through negotiations, and I can promise you that Doug will fight to have plane heavy checks out who ever wins the vote.
Dell, On the FIRST vote, my position did in fact speak for the masses.
The IAM has lost a lot of clout for holding the second vote.
Maybe on the next offer, They'll make it best 2 out of 3..
Phantom Fixer
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Whiney Bob,
I have to give credit where credit is due. The AFA (Teddy Xidas) did fight one hell of a "Rear Guard Action"...no ifs ands or buts about it. However the AFA sustained about as much pain as anyone in the end...without Judge Roy Beancounter completely over-throwing the scope of thier contract...as they did the IAM's
Without knocking Ms.Xidas's efforts for a moment...look at what took place in PIT alone. PIT took a most direct hit in regards to jobs , facilities and the works. Being De-Hubbed is as about as nasty as it gets in the Hub and Spoke world. Yet the IAM retained PIT as a Base Maintenance Station...or at least got the work secured ,no matter if it actually stays in PIT in the long term? I can only hope so for a lot of great workers there.
Regarding DL..I think you are being a bit to over the top in regards to thier future. DL not having your beloved Unions to deal with...and a really great and far reaching route system has a lot more wiggle room than the likes of U past and present.
DL can impose whatever they wish on the "At Will" types..as the major hurdle with the Pilots is already behind them (Right U ALPA ?) 😛 Nothing says a second fleecing at DL isn't in the future...as U has diagramed how to do it but good.
Again DL can impose whatever on the vast majority employed there...and for two reasons. NW has shown that people will work for far less and even cross a picket line to do it for less (SCABS)...US has proven as much too , as we all work for less now ..and with far fewer people too.
Air Tran in DL's own backyard hires people all the time for a fraction of what present day DL pays. DL will survive..but like U , people will have to decide for themselves if they can afford to stay with DL in a number of career areas? I have many friends leaping from the DL ranks as we speak...and most are leaving the industry for good. This does not speak well for the industry or safety within the industry..as senior talent is retiring , moving on...and even dying off.
DL is also likely to garner far more interest from outside investors than US or HP could have ever hoped for because of being mostly Non-Union with the afore mentioned route system in place. I also look to see Hubs like CVG and SLC getting slashed or scaled back big-time , with an even greater focus on ATL taking place , DP sees it this way too..as he spoke at length on the subject in CLT last week. DP also sees some minor benefits not windfalls coming from a 20% pull-down of DL's Domestic Services.
DL will not be cutting its own throat by performing a Pull-Down...just making better use of what it has...another page from present day U's book. Whether the book is right or not? , remains to be seen.
Regarding Doug Parkers comments about the IAM and the IBT...it's Not Doug's fight. He can kick and scream all he wishes about Heavy Maintenance...its here till at least 2009...and nobody with a brain cell to spare is going to out 2000 plus Union voting members by trying to give it away..unless they want to see some real Senority Based Pain coming to a station near you in the West. 😛h34r:
I have to give credit where credit is due. The AFA (Teddy Xidas) did fight one hell of a "Rear Guard Action"...no ifs ands or buts about it. However the AFA sustained about as much pain as anyone in the end...without Judge Roy Beancounter completely over-throwing the scope of thier contract...as they did the IAM's
Without knocking Ms.Xidas's efforts for a moment...look at what took place in PIT alone. PIT took a most direct hit in regards to jobs , facilities and the works. Being De-Hubbed is as about as nasty as it gets in the Hub and Spoke world. Yet the IAM retained PIT as a Base Maintenance Station...or at least got the work secured ,no matter if it actually stays in PIT in the long term? I can only hope so for a lot of great workers there.
Regarding DL..I think you are being a bit to over the top in regards to thier future. DL not having your beloved Unions to deal with...and a really great and far reaching route system has a lot more wiggle room than the likes of U past and present.
DL can impose whatever they wish on the "At Will" types..as the major hurdle with the Pilots is already behind them (Right U ALPA ?) 😛 Nothing says a second fleecing at DL isn't in the future...as U has diagramed how to do it but good.
Again DL can impose whatever on the vast majority employed there...and for two reasons. NW has shown that people will work for far less and even cross a picket line to do it for less (SCABS)...US has proven as much too , as we all work for less now ..and with far fewer people too.
Air Tran in DL's own backyard hires people all the time for a fraction of what present day DL pays. DL will survive..but like U , people will have to decide for themselves if they can afford to stay with DL in a number of career areas? I have many friends leaping from the DL ranks as we speak...and most are leaving the industry for good. This does not speak well for the industry or safety within the industry..as senior talent is retiring , moving on...and even dying off.
DL is also likely to garner far more interest from outside investors than US or HP could have ever hoped for because of being mostly Non-Union with the afore mentioned route system in place. I also look to see Hubs like CVG and SLC getting slashed or scaled back big-time , with an even greater focus on ATL taking place , DP sees it this way too..as he spoke at length on the subject in CLT last week. DP also sees some minor benefits not windfalls coming from a 20% pull-down of DL's Domestic Services.
DL will not be cutting its own throat by performing a Pull-Down...just making better use of what it has...another page from present day U's book. Whether the book is right or not? , remains to be seen.
Regarding Doug Parkers comments about the IAM and the IBT...it's Not Doug's fight. He can kick and scream all he wishes about Heavy Maintenance...its here till at least 2009...and nobody with a brain cell to spare is going to out 2000 plus Union voting members by trying to give it away..unless they want to see some real Senority Based Pain coming to a station near you in the West. 😛h34r:
calibrator
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Whiney Bob,
GEE___I wonder where you picked that up
Bob’s like the guy with no family so he ends up spending all his time over at the neighbors buying their kids gifts and taking pictures of them and putting those pictures all thru his house. And he always has the endless stream of wisdom to give the few privileged who come across it’s flow.
Here lies Whiney, the guy with nothing but endless wisdom, regardless, here he lies.
Phantom Fixer
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Calibrator...as much as Bob lives on this board...I almost elected to call him "Side-Show Bob" ,as no matter what the subject is?...He knows better about our business than we do. 🙄
calibrator
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Side note: I agree with your comments on Miss Xidas. The subject of the legendary AFA president is a land mine waiting to go off in your face if you speak negative. Funny because on another internet site that deals with a hobby of interest of mine we had discussions on what was called $35 dollar bottle vodka versus the $5 brands. When doing a blind test it was impossible to tell the difference between the expensive or the cheap brand, but when people KNEW the difference, well then the expensive brand was surely better, when in reality, there was no difference. AFA is no different. Miss Xidas deserves accolades for fighting the literal devil and I am sure she is still reeling from those battles as no one faces Satan and comes away unscathed. However, the results the AFA accomplished were no different than any other UNION and why I have been blasting unions and their passive memberships.
It seems the modern day robber barons have a license to pillage the working class because the working class just sits back and says, oh gee what can we possible do, they do this instead of sticking together as one very big powerful force to be reckoned with. They just roll over and play dead while the union officials say, oh well, it’s a tough world out there. EXCUSE ME! It was AWAYS a tough world with the only difference between now and your parents, your parents had balls and you people are gutless wonders letting Corporate walk up one side and down the other on your sorry a-z-zes.
Unions, what in GOD’S name would anyone want to pay dues given the results they are reaping today’s working class, WHY, give me ONE good RATIONAL reason!? Until they make a comeback like in the years past, I personally will stay wide and clear of them because in today’s world one can do better without their so-called help.
gonzo
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Hmmmmm.....I need to put it as simply as I can:
1. Believe actions not words. Just because DP says it's the best thing doesn't mean it is. He has an agenda and it's not for your benefit, it's for his. If the agenda benefits you also, then he looks even better.
2. The IAM CBA does allow outsourcing, period. Make all the excuses you want, it still allows outsourcing. It doesn't matter how or why.
3. The Teamsters CBA at AWA has been tested and has prevailed.
4. Any union that says, "we are having another vote, because you didn't understand the issues", has lost credibility and influence. IMHO The union is to blame if the members don't understand the issues.
5. 🙂
1. Believe actions not words. Just because DP says it's the best thing doesn't mean it is. He has an agenda and it's not for your benefit, it's for his. If the agenda benefits you also, then he looks even better.
2. The IAM CBA does allow outsourcing, period. Make all the excuses you want, it still allows outsourcing. It doesn't matter how or why.
3. The Teamsters CBA at AWA has been tested and has prevailed.
4. Any union that says, "we are having another vote, because you didn't understand the issues", has lost credibility and influence. IMHO The union is to blame if the members don't understand the issues.
5. 🙂
