A Time And A Place Fo Everything

:eek: 407 you're right on all accounts.
I too was light when I enjoyed this problem, both times.
I agree "feel" is what tells you when your close, except at night when the VSI is a help.
And yes, you caught me, that's not my machine. That's when 47's were flown by men with their hair in the breeze, hats flipped up, and a smoke in their mouth. Now a days we don't smoke but it's still nice to hang outside in the breeze. :prop:
 
Basicly it's just a matter of getting downflow and up flow through the disk at the same time (downflow out near the tip and upflow further in) and BINGO another vortex forms inside the disk and away goes the rug!!! :shock: :shock: :shock:
Vref is right aircraft type and disk loading plays a part also.

twitch
 
:( You guys apperently don't work Vertical reference for a living. <_< TD I have a great respect for you if you flew chokers in B47, Unfortunetly I'am not sure what A/C would have relied on the 400 lb bundle @ 60 kts to support it's logging operations. Again, I caution you in refering GTOW as having relevance. Students that might be transitioning to a bigger A/C should know that regardless of weight, if you fly an approach downwind with a high rate of descente, you will more than likely experience VRS. GTOW has little to do with VRS and has a lot to do with pilots knowing there flight profile. I agree that the heavier you are the worse it will be, but that has nothing to do with the what got the pilot there in the first place. I've flown extensive VR work with heavy's, mediums, intermediates and lights. Gross Take Off Weight has little to do with VRS, this condtion is usually a loss of situational awarness that has led the pilot into believeing that he/she has the world by the tail. I've flown alot of wrecks out, that would beg to differ. :bye:
 
Just to see how much fire I'll get in, but to recover from Vortex Ring State (VRS) I teach that there are three ways to do it.

Start at the basics, the 'stuff' needed to get into it:
Rate of descend of at least 300 feet/minute
SOME power applied (Doesn't specify how much, but usually around 18"/MAP in the 300CB)
Speed less than ETL (12-15 Knots)(Airspeed of course)

Now to demonstrate the manoeuver I slow down on the upwind at altitude, after completing HASEL checks and so on, turn downwind and set power at 18" MAP and continue to slow down. At some point you'll start to descend, and if you get into it immedialtely you'll know. At this point I'll raise the collective VERY slightly, and we will get into it worse, with the sypmtoms increasing in effect.

Now is the time to recover and here are the three methods:
1. Lower collective, don't like that one, cause you'll most likely e close to the ground with limited sopace when it really happens
2. Lower collective and get speed, better but not my favorurite either
3. Gat airspeed, in any direction as needed, and you are able to climb out after loosing about 50-100 feet after initializing recovery.

Now I like to say it is better to be proactive rather than reactive! So I teach them the VRS triangle (just like the fire triangle). You need three things to get into it, if you keep at least one of the items out of your flying anytime, then there is no problem!

Hope I won't attract too much heat...
 
When you are longlining you cannot lower the pole or get airspeed! so what do you do? ...laterial cyclic... try it some day at 2000' agl. it should work on the training machines cause i know it sure works on the mediums. leave the collective where it is and move the stick to the side you are sitting on! ;)
 
  • Thread Starter
  • Thread starter
  • #36
ah yet another tip from yah vert ref. keep em comin, and am looking forward to trying that out.
 
Would be best to casually mention it to your check / training pilot at your next recurrency session! Let him try it, if you have never done it before! ;) And don't move the collective, just hard laterial cyclic...and watch the results.
 
Hey Big Duke I think you are missing the point we are making. Sure you can get into VRS heavy or light. It's just, let's say "magnified" when you are near max gross, no matter what aircraft you are in. Maybe were are getting tangled up in the terms abit. I'm not tring to compare 500's to 61's its all relitive to the precentage of your maximum weight. I hope I made my point a little clearer!!!!!

twitch
 
Twitch, I live in the point!!! 5-7 hrs a day, everyday on the end of the line.Thankfully at least I've got two engines :up:. I think we are now officially chasing our respective tails. :D

Vert-Ref has spilled the beans again. ;) This technique is by far the quickest recovery procedure :up: , I'am very suprised as to why training schools and check pilots don't teach it, especially if you are working production longling in your daily operations. VR, dude if ya keep teachin' these guys all the tricks were both going to be in the soup line. :D :p Got your PM, and would have to totally agree, it's actually a little scary. ;)
 
:rolleyes: twitch: You got it. We're not disagreeing with Big D as to how to get there or that GW is not the cause. It just makes it far easier to succumb. That's not too hard to understand. Moving on. ;)
 
Winnie,
Don't take this the wrong way, but how long can you expect to demonstrate this without it eventually biting you back?
 
:D Now for a real pissing contest ;) Just kidding. I did however want ask the training community, Why these recovery techinques are not covered when teaching VRS. I know when I do recurrent VR training we always brief and execute a few to make the canadite realize that lateral cyclic is far more beneficial in minamizing distance over the ground, as well as reducing an altitude penalty. It is the most efficant way to get the helicopter into "Clean Air". The other question was left seat emergency training, if it's applicable to your fleet. I'am suprised how even very experiencd drivers get "helmet fire" when demonstrating a recovery procedure from the other seat. The company I work for does both, and for new hires this sometimes is there first exposure to this type of training. Why is this not taught earlier in there training, either at initial CPL(H) completion or on company recurrency. Our minimum requirement is 5000 hrs TT with an extensive VR background, and we still see pilot's trying to recover the old way. Now for TD's, and Twitch's benefit :D , I would like to clarify the question. Why is this technique not taught at lower levels of training. Or is Lateral cyclic recovery something totaly new to the "Flight training community". Afterall we are all trying to maintain a standard, either at the inital phase of training or at a company level are we not? This a very good example of not having the distance or altitude to recover with the conventional procedure.
 
:eek: My applogies on the Quality of the photo. I have a much better picture of the 212's impact, but I'am having difficulty loading it. :oops: The intended landing was 15m below the wreckage, this company is no longer in business in case any of you are wondering. To provide a safe and efficant service to our customers is generally the mandate of most companys. The best safety device in any A/C is a well trained crew.
 
Icefloe,

watahyaat? You still yanking that sewer pipe around the island.

Must be growing tired of the bird towing, or should I say all the money your makin :eek: B) :up:


ohhh....and Big Duke, someone should talk to that pilot, never even tied his blades down, sheesh :shock: :shock:

on a serious note............that gotta suck, ouch!
 
Good oh Big Duke.. You got to keep it simple for me. :blink: :blink:

Maybe some of the pilots you see were trained east of the Rockies where many of the instructors never had much to do with high hover, steep approach production work where maybe it may be more likely to happen. Now before all you high time well experienced instructors jump down my throat, I'm just making the observation that maybe some of the lower time instructors in the flat land never heard of that particular method. Say out of Buttonville were there isn't much logging or seismic being done right now :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: Plus I don’t think that many companies make it a priority, it probably doesn’t even show on their training forms. From what I've seen over the years not many production drivers "settle down" to become instructors... Just my opinion of course.

twitch
 

Latest posts

Back
Top