AA and TLV

[etops1]

I hate to rehash this but can someone with factual knowledge explain to me what is the situation between AA and Tel Aviv ? Is AA banned from flying into TLV? Thank you .

 

[FWAAA]

AA is not banned from TLV. Before the TWA asset purchase closed, AA told TWA to cancel the TLV route as AA said it was a money-loser and AA didn't want to have to pay the 100-some TLV TWA employees their statutory severence if AA canceled it after April 10, 2001. So TWA canceled it. The former employees sued TWA in Israel and obtained a judgment for $15 million or so. I heard that they attempted to collect on that judgment in the TWA bankruptcy liquidation case in Delaware and got nowhere. AFAIK, there are no judgments against AA. As AA bought assets and did not merge with TWA, under US law, AA is not liable. Under Israeli law - well, that's for the Israeli lawyers.

There has long been interwebs rumours that if AA ever flew to TLV, the former TWA employees would be able to grab the plane to secure their judgment. Nobody has ever proved/disproved that.

With interest, their judgment is probably $40 million or more, so if they need to be paid, I'm sure AA/US has some lawyers looking into it. Lots of interwebs rumours that TLV prints money for US, DL and CO (now UA). If those are true, then the judgement is a minor annoyance, not an impediment. Recall that CO paid something like $40 million for each LHR slot pair in 2008 so that it could move three flights from LGW to LHR, so this judgment (if it has to be paid) is like buying an LHR slot.

All that said, it wasn't that judgment that was behind AA's decision to ignore TLV all these years.

 

[robbedagain]

given that parker will be runnin the combined company i wonder if he will add that 2nd philly to tlv and or more tlv flights from the say ny or ord or even dfw or mia

 

[FWAAA]

given that parker will be runnin the combined company i wonder if he will add that 2nd philly to tlv and or more tlv flights from the say ny or ord or even dfw or mia

I've heard that more than half of the traffic to TLV from the USA are Christians from middle-America, so that would argue in favor of a flight from ORD or DFW in addition to the Jewish-heavy cities of PHL and NYC (and perhaps MIA). EL AL flies (or used to) from LAX, but I don't see new AA doing that.

 

[WorldTraveler]

since DOT data doesn't include religion it is impossible to know the faith of the people that go to the Holy Land but since there are more Christians than Jews in the US and Christians go on their own pilgrimages to the Holy Land and the sites of the ancient Church, it isn't a stretch to think that there are plenty of Christians onboard flights to TLV.

However, DOT data clearly shows that the top destinations for all 3 US carriers that fly to Israel are the big coastal cities such as NYC, PHL, BOS, LAX and SFO, major cities of FL, plus LAS. Each carrier then has their hub cities in their top O&Ds.

As for the question regarding whether AA can fly to TLV again, that is probably one of those "wait and see" things but if the Israeli's pursue the claim against AA, then $40M is not an insignificant amount. Other carriers don't have to pay that kind of fee - and some did not have t pay $50M per flight in order to gain access to LHR. LHR is strategically far more significant than TLV to an airline.

As a side note, for those who know, what make of engines does US have on its 330s?

 

[A320 Driver]

since DOT data doesn't include religion it is impossible to know the faith of the people that go to the Holy Land but since there are more Christians than Jews in the US and Christians go on their own pilgrimages to the Holy Land and the sites of the ancient Church, it isn't a stretch to think that there are plenty of Christians onboard flights to TLV.

However, DOT data clearly shows that the top destinations for all 3 US carriers that fly to Israel are the big coastal cities such as NYC, PHL, BOS, LAX and SFO, major cities of FL, plus LAS. Each carrier then has their hub cities in their top O&Ds.

As for the question regarding whether AA can fly to TLV again, that is probably one of those "wait and see" things but if the Israeli's pursue the claim against AA, then $40M is not an insignificant amount. Other carriers don't have to pay that kind of fee - and some did not have t pay $50M per flight in order to gain access to LHR. LHR is strategically far more significant than TLV to an airline.

As a side note, for those who know, what make of engines does US have on its 330s?

P&Ws on the -300s. High output RR Trents on the -200s (72K thrust)

 

[Barfbag]

Well if you're saying most people into TLV were Christians, I doubt. How do you explain 300 Kosher Meals on a 747?

The aircrafts could never be " turned " cleaned upon arrival into JFK either. So the TLV aircraft were " deep" cleaned and sat on the TWA tarmac for eight hours being serviced, (All seat pocket materials were removed and on the floor, most passenger meal tables either broken or graffitied on, all lavatories were depleted of supplies).

So whatever AA is paying now for cleaning of one plane they'll pay a lot more for this route if they return.

I believe TWA wanted to lose this route years before the so-called merger with AMR, but without causing a diplomatic uproar, how could they ? So they dumped it in Bankrutpcy, at AMRs urgings.

I don't see the New American going anywhere near TLV anyway...

 

[wings396]

Can't speak for the TWA days of TLV service, but for US it is very profitable. The cargo also adds even more profit, and it has been said that US would like to run a 2nd trip at some point. The PHL-TLV service takes up 2 A/C due to the length of the flight, and I doubt they would be running the flts if they weren't making a healthy profit.

 

[WorldTraveler]

I don't think either FWA or I are saying that the majority are Christians but they do comprise a decent percent of the travelers to Israel. His point is valid that the market is not all NE Jews but the DOT data still shows the largest O&Ds are from the large coastal cities and each carrier's hubs.

I am certain TLV is profitable for US and they would like to keep it.

 

[700UW]

It has been said when the additional A330-200s come online this year, that US will add a second daily flight to TLV.

 

[wings396]

I have heard the same thing, am flight I believe.

 

[Veritas]

I heard that they attempted to collect on that judgment in the TWA bankruptcy liquidation case in Delaware and got nowhere.

The claim filed by the TWA Israeli employees and retirees was rejected by the Delaware Bankruptcy Court and that rejection was upheld on appeal by the US third Circuit Court of Appeal in an opinion authored by now Supreme Court Justice Alito.

EL AL flies (or used to) from LAX, but I don't see new AA doing that.

El Al flies as many as five weekly non-stop round trips between TLV and LAX, but then Los Angeles has the largest Israeli expatriate community in the world.

 

[Barfbag]

The claim filed by the TWA Israeli employees and retirees was rejected by the Delaware Bankruptcy Court and that rejection was upheld on appeal by the US third Circuit Court of Appeal in an opinion authored by now Supreme Court Justice Alito.



El Al flies as many as five weekly non-stop round trips between TLV and LAX, but then Los Angeles has the largest Israeli expatriate community in the world.

Hurray for Hollywood....

 

[BuffaloJoe]

Hurray for Hollywood....

Mel Gibson is flying the plane... :wacko:

 

[eolesen]

I've heard that more than half of the traffic to TLV from the USA are Christians from middle-America, so that would argue in favor of a flight from ORD or DFW in addition to the Jewish-heavy cities of PHL and NYC (and perhaps MIA). EL AL flies (or used to) from LAX, but I don't see new AA doing that.

However, DOT data clearly shows that the top destinations for all 3 US carriers that fly to Israel are the big coastal cities such as NYC, PHL, BOS, LAX and SFO, major cities of FL, plus LAS. Each carrier then has their hub cities in their top O&Ds.

Just for gits and shiggles, I was pulling some O&D data, and the numbers are a little more skewed than I thought they'd be:

July 2012
Rank Orig    Demand  %ofTotal
.1   JFK    33521  41%
.2   EWR    15109  19%
.3   LAX     8828  11%
.4   SFO     2583   3%
.5   MIA     2563   3%
.6   BOS     2494   3%
.7   ORD     2426   3%
.8   PHL     2103   3%
.9   LAS     1162   1%
.10  ATL     1069   1%
.11  IAD     1065   1%
.12  DFW      937   1%
.13  DCA      821   1%
.14  SEA      685   1%
.15  BWI      678   1%
.16  MCO      639   1%
.17  MSP      631   1%
.18  FLL      523   1%
.19  DEN      511   1%
.20  IAH      420   1%

With >70% of the traffic originating at either EWR, JFK, or LAX, it's pretty clear that it's a market pretty tightly tied to religion.

These are trip O&D's, so anything booked DFW-JFK-TLV or DFW-LHR-TLV would be reported under DFW.

It gets a bit more interesting when you look at the connecting ratios of the large gateways with nonstop service...

JFK 16%
EWR 31%
LAX 6%
PHL 72%

That PHL flight may be full, but it's mostly connecting pax. And we know full doesn't necessarily equal profitable.