AA Down Under and Trans Pac?

[700UW]

US uses envoy as first class on domestic runs and all the NB has first class.
 
And when we had F/C on the A330-300 it was only six seats.

 

[eolesen]

If you have ever worked for an airline, you should know that the general consensus is that FIRST CLASS (international that is) does not make money.  Thus, it's being tussed left and right.

Not entirely accurate. Yes, it's being ditched by some carriers, but those are the ones who never figured out how to deliver a true First product, and never got the money from offering it.

Airlines who understand what service means will continue to offer the cabin, and make money by doing it right.

 

[737823]

Not entirely accurate. Yes, it's being ditched by some carriers, but those are the ones who never figured out how to deliver a true First product, and never got the money from offering it.Airlines who understand what service means will continue to offer the cabin, and make money by doing it right.

Agreed, but don't you think a large part of it is the route networks of the carriers that removed FC don't serve (or primarily serve) premium heavy products suited for their product/LOPA? I mean for a carrier like AZ or US no use having true international FC as CLT & PHL and FCO & MXP aren't especially premium heavy compared to say HKG, LHR, NRT, NYC etc.

I still can't get over that LY still has a watered down FC that is pretty dismal on all fronts yet they don't have fully flat C product to this day. Complacent management and lack of investment it would seem.

Josh

 

[AdAstraPerAspera]

Well, whether you call it F/C, Business Elite or a ham and cheese sandwich, it's still the very front cabin in the plane with the top of the line service.  Which by the way, my STL friend, who is a senior AA flight attendant (about 30 years), said that Delta's front cabin service, amenities and food beat us all to hell and back.

 
I've flown DTW-AMS, DTW-HKG, HKG-NRT, and NRT-JFK all in Business Elite with my partner who is a Delta flight attendant, and I can say that it is not any better than our old J product, and our new Biz class in the A321T and the 777-300ER is far better

 

[IORFA]

IORFA:
 
What's up with the dissing of DELTA's premium cabin?  First off, Delta was one of the first US carriers to install the new lie-flat business class seats in the US.  International First class is a thing of the past. Impractical for most airlines, as the new business class has replaced it.  If you have ever worked for an airline, you should know that the general consensus is that FIRST CLASS (international that is) does not make money.  Thus, it's being tossed left and right.
 
US Airways doesn't have First Class, and I seriously doubt that they will reinstall it.  There is a reason why they removed it from their A333 to begin with.
 
The other thing you have to consider is that DELTA is the one and only airline that is ecstatic to put employees (and that is any airline employees) ahead of even FFs, and upgrade them to their premium cabin for free.  That's a culture of good-will towards airline employees.
 
You don't have that mentality at US.  For an agent to upgrade an employee to Envoy or domestic FC without that coupon, he/she has to risk his/her job.  Last I remember about UA, they charged for that service as well or it was inaccessible to family members, meaning only the employee can travel or has to travel with them.  I am not sure about AA, but I have heard that there is also a fee for FIRST and even Business.  From what I have also seen, the majority of wide bodies at AA are 767.  Those aircraft have Business Class Seats only, with the first two rows being renamed FIRST.  So in essence no different than most carriers in the USA.  777's have been the exception to the fleet, because there is also space that can be sacrificed for it, and the old First in the 777 is not the same as the new one on the 773.
 
So with all of your boasting about AA's first time ever decent (and only recently installed) IFC, what's the point?  Most employees or OAL staff will likely never see it fully free of charge.
 
You need to take a flight on DL on a 777LR.  I guarantee you that (without you shelling out a dime) you have a great chance of getting in on BE.  But then again, with you probably permeating a negative attitude towards DL while waiting, I could also see you NOT getting into that cabin ever.
 
I always say: When non-reving Internationally, especially to a destination that US doesn't serve, but DL does actually, I prefer to take DL over US - alone for the simple fact that at US I have to shell out money for the upgrade.  At Delta, I get the upgrade for free.  Even a ZED ticket beats the price.  With US I'd have to stop in LHR or FRA, then ZED anyway the rest.

57 777's to 58 767's. Seems pretty even to me. Not sure what you mean by the first 2 rows being called first class. That observation by you is lost on me. I've never seen any AA plane with business class call the first 2 rows first class. That would be stupid. How you could say that 777 first class is only recently good is crazy. Apparently you've never been on one. The seats are virtually the same. Small updates and different seat covers and trim is all. How you turned this into a I ride free thus the service is great thread is also weird and way off topic. I'm also confused how you got it free when you don't work there. For the international flights you would have had to buy a ZED ticket. At least for AA F/A's, we don't get free international jumpseat privelages. If you do at US, good for you. Otherwise it isn't free. The upgrade is free. Yet if you read my reply, I also said that Delta gives OA employees seats front to back. Not back to front. I also said Northwest did this too. I'm just not sure if Delta did that by themselves or if NW taught it to them. I fly Delta plenty domestically, have no reason to take them internationally. Seems like AdAstr... Has a handle on Delta service. Cant wait till you try to correct him. Maybe we just expect better things in life. I feel sorry that your expectations are lower than mine.

 

[ContUNITEus]

Not entirely accurate. Yes, it's being ditched by some carriers, but those are the ones who never figured out how to deliver a true First product, and never got the money from offering it.

Airlines who understand what service means will continue to offer the cabin, and make money by doing it right.

Well let me tell you that you are wrong.  I can tell you from first hand experience from my time at UAL, (AND GRANTED THAT THIS IS FROM THE PAST) that it based its flying to destinations around the world, solely on the amount of Business Class Seats sold.  I quote a UAL trainer, "We constantly evaluate our route network.  If not enough business class seats are sold, we discontinue the route."  At the time DUS and MXP were on the axe list, and DUS was eventually dropped, First Class or not. That's is why UAL shrunk in Europe and South America to almost nothing pre-CO-merger.
 
CO operated differently.  At one point in the past they also dropped the First Class Product.  They, along with Delta, set out to do business differently, especially when CO discovered that it could utilize a sub-par aircraft -the 757 for (say) European routes out of EWR.  In essence, CO pioneered the change in keeping certain routes on the map, and re-directing their core business to non business travel even - with that I mean tourism travel.
 
I believe that UA from today has kept that CO culture. But understand that UA used to gauge their flying solely on Business Travel, not on First Class travel, despite keeping the cabin around.  First class is being kept today at UAL as a "Por se acaso" basis and being deployed to limited routes.  Why do you think True International First was not installed on the 787?  It was kept on the 747, perhaps because it is too expensive to remove it.  UAL today also flies a mix of 777 with the UA 777 still flying iFC and CO 777 just BusinesFirst.
 
Again, the point is, FIRST Class is nothing to tout about.  No US carrier truly knows to to compete with the true champions of FIRST CLASS travel, the Asian and Middle Eastern airlines - even the European Carriers like Lufthansa and Air France struggle with that product.
 
Speaking of Lufthansa, why do you suppose AA dropped FRA out of MIA?  Because they could not compete with the LH product.  "Never gonna make it."  Just wasn't there... Too many tourists, and the little bit of First and Business Class traffic that anyone could gather went to LH.  To make matters worse, LTU flying 1 or two times a week to Miami (with an all economy configuration in the mid 90s), put the nail on the coffin for AA's MIA-FRA route.  Even today, with the current codeshare with AB, AA could not possibly compete in any German route pairing.  AB is doing about 14 flights a week now to both DUS/TXL LH is doing A380 as well as 747-800/400 on FRA.  They also do A330 at times out of MUC and DUS.  (I would love to see AA use a 773 to DUS, TXL or FRA) But, realistically, codeshare will have to do the trick for now.  So much for having supposedly a SUPERIOR product - with International FIRST and all.  But, superior to what, though, I ask.

 

[ContUNITEus]

Her opinion. Others have different ones. Their Business Elite is on par to our business class. Slightly better, yet lesser than First class. Their domestic First is a joke. Absolute joke if you ask me. Flights that I am on that are 2 hours or less receive a snack basket at all times of the day. That is embarrassing! Overall, their service beats no one to hell and back. You should have laughed at your friend. Maybe she should try flying international business and first on her employer. She might change her tune.

 
Another thing I wanted to say about the comment above.  Watch what Doug Parker will do to your airline.  Watch and suffer.  You will be in for a big shock.  Mark my words on this: American Airlines will be America Westernized, just like they did to US Airways.
 
Even this thing of two people serving first class on domestic routes like AA does?  Watch... Just watch... 4 flight attendants on a 737?  Just wait and see.
 
You will be in for a loooong surprise over time.  Get used to change.

 

[nycbusdriver]

 
 4 flight attendants on a 737?  Just wait and see.
 
You will be in for a loooong surprise over time.  Get used to change.

 
I agree.  They will go to FAR minimum cabin staff.  They may not make First Class suffer, depending on the load up front.  If First is full, two flight attendants will be assigned to get that service done, while the loner will work coach by him/herself, if necessary.  If First Class gets done early and the flight is long enough, one will go back to help in coach.
 
Minimum staffing is how things work in the Parker School of Airline Management.

 

[IORFA]

The 4th F/A only shows up on transcons and some medium haul international. The only reason is that the service warrants it. If Parker wants the service to be at the same level AND timing, then the extra F/A is needed. If they don't, then remove the extra and lower the service. No problem. That is why our contract lets us grieve staffing issues. APFA has a pretty good record on this. Won members millions from the 777 and maintained the current staffing. AA had to reduce the service that was offered or add the additional F/A the union wanted. AA paid for understaffing the flights and reduced the service instead of adding the extra. Problem solved. They told us that they were going to add seats in the 737 a year ago, which would necessitate the 4th anyway. Pretty much everything else domestically is FAR minimum.

 

[ContUNITEus]

The 4th F/A only shows up on transcons and some medium haul international. The only reason is that the service warrants it. If Parker wants the service to be at the same level AND timing, then the extra F/A is needed. If they don't, then remove the extra and lower the service. No problem. That is why our contract lets us grieve staffing issues. APFA has a pretty good record on this. Won members millions from the 777 and maintained the current staffing. AA had to reduce the service that was offered or add the additional F/A the union wanted. AA paid for understaffing the flights and reduced the service instead of adding the extra. Problem solved. They told us that they were going to add seats in the 737 a year ago, which would necessitate the 4th anyway. Pretty much everything else domestically is FAR minimum.

<QUOTE>The only reason is that the service warrants it....</QUOTE>  ?????? DP's thought on it: If it can be staffed with 3 only, it'll be with 3 for the rest of the time to come. And yes without removing service levels.  You'll just have to figure out how to do it.  If they were able to do it at AWA, and then they made US do it so as well, then AA will be just fine the same way.
 
As for your comment on counting on APFA for protecting you so much against what DP and cronies may do, again, you will be in for a big surprise, when you see that APFA leaders have to deal with (THIS) bunch of buffoons.  You think those people are easy? Just watch.  AFA east used to be just as tough as APFA.  AFA66, well, they were beaten into submission long time ago.  But AFA east, they have had to come to grips with the AWA way of doing things as well.  (Just take it from the recent decision that DP made of arbitrarily and without consultation everything in NON-REV travel FCFS, right on the foothills of agreeing/reconfirming, per the new US contract, that Seniority is the rule.) Your APFA will have it's own wonderful experiences, soon to follow, I guarantee that.
 
You will have such things as transition agreements, that will stipulate that they cannot give each others flying away to other entity.  And right after signing that, guess what, that's exactly what DP and cronies will do.  They will then tell APFA and AFA to shove it and ask you to 'file a grievance later.'  You will then win the grievance or settle, and DP will say... "sorry about that, we promise you we wont do that again."  Then a week later he'll do it again.  AND LAUGH IN YOUR FACE ABOUT.
 
I truly hope that the Ghettofication of airlines has stopped by the AWA management team, and that they will bring back the US product to a lot of AA's current wasteful standards.  That's how it should be.  But don't be surprised or angry when AWA/DP starts gutting things (to bring it up to par with modern times, and his supposed notion that 'customers really don't want that anymore.')

 

[ContUNITEus]

Anyway, back to subject.  I hope that AA becomes a great airline and gets some 777LRs or follows through with the A350 for AU and NZ service.  I find it great that through US Airways, AA has finally gotten a good foot-print in Europe.
 
Now, please go back down Under and into Africa and Asia..  Doggie Parker, please move away from that believe you said you had a few years ago, of "not starting a route because it's just neat."  IT IS NEAT to try new things that help EXPANSION!!!  Be a true risk taker.  You take all the bad risks anyway.  Now, take some good risks as well.

 

[eolesen]

To be polite, you should stick to serving customers and being a safety professional. Network planning and analysis doesn't appear to be amongst your strengths.

It's a business, not a dream factory. No airline starts up routes just because it might be neat.... You can't invent demand for long-haul routes if it isn't already there.

 

[RJcasualty]

To be polite, you should stick to serving customers and being a safety professional. Network planning and analysis doesn't appear to be amongst your strengths.

It's a business, not a dream factory. No airline starts up routes just because it might be neat.... You can't invent demand for long-haul routes if it isn't already there.

OT and just wonderin'. Should your sons or daughters be interested in flying commercial pilot--- and you had to foot the bill... would you recommend it or not?  

 

[737823]

It's a business, not a dream factory. No airline starts up routes just because it might be neat.... You can't invent demand for long-haul routes if it isn't already there.

Expect perhaps Dubai and EK.

Josh

 

[eolesen]

EK has built DXB by simultaneously drawing traffic away from other carriers, and exploiting their lower labor cost structure thanks to the tax free status of Dubai.

They are the largest provider of transportation for Asian and Indian immigrant labor to the Gulf States, and that's pretty lucrative given very few Emerati's actually work.

How long their business model can continue is questionable. If DXB's economy implodes, it will take EK with it.