AAA ALPA Thread 9-21 to 9-27

[LCC_#1]

Pilots like USA320pilot always look out for their own self interest, but try to trick other's into believing that he really cares about them. The difference between the two is integrity.

Pot, meet kettle.

 

[767jetz]

I often wonder why you spend time virtually every day since this message board was launched preaching to the US Airways pilots.

Really? Hmmm. I'm touched that you admire me so much as to often think about why I do the things I do. Thank you. Frankly, I don't spend any time wondering about you at all. I just shake my head and move on.

I do notice the hypocrisy of a person who spent so much time over the years sticking his nose in UA's business, telling others to stay in their own playground.
Friendly Reminder #1: This is a public web site where people exchange ideas back AND forth, not your personal soap box to preach from.
Friendly Reminder #2: Your opinion is no more informed or respected than anyone else's
Friendly Reminder #3: How this plays out is the business of every airline pilot.

The ability of the East pilots to vote “noâ€￾ on any forced agreement by ALPA National. ALPA can take over negotiations, but they are prevented by the Constitution and By-laws to vote on any TA. I believe with the top 500 retiring every day and more furloughees returning those who would support a “cram downâ€￾ TA gets lower and lower, which is another delay tactic.

Interesting choice of words to spin with. There will be no "forced" agreement. No one said that the East pilots would not get a vote, or that ALPA would vote for them. I believe I have been asking all along that if you are so sure a TA would not pass, why not send one out for a vote. In fact, that's what the West pilots have been asking as well. Now we will all get to see the results. The East pilots will get a vote, which is something the East MEC rarely gives them, and then they will decide for themselves what is best for their families. They will no longer have the MEC speak for them, coach them, or prep them, or tell them what to say. They will speak for themselves for the first time in a long time with their vote.

Haven't you heard? There are more and more East pilots who are in no rush to force the USAPA on anyone. They realize that while they may not like ALPA, the USAPA will open a whole new can of worms. And just like I told you, there are more and more who will sit tight and see what materializes from the JNC. Just read what Jetz has been posting, or talk to pilots like the ones ableoneable flew with.

And this "cram down" you speak of... is it anything like the "union imposition" you frequently talk about?

And, there will be even more news Monday night, which you will be surprised about again.

Again??? I wasn't surprised about the news from the EC. Most people knew it was inevitable. I believe it was you who continues to be surprised by the fact that your predictions continue to be wrong.

 

[700UW]

AWA320,

Next, it is harder to have the NMB to authorize an election because it takes more cards than votes to win an election. To win an election you only need 50% + 1 of those who vote whereas to have an election you need 50% + 1 of the total seniority list, which makes it very important to know the status of the furloughed pilots since USAPA will file the NMB Form 1 at or near the time all furloughees status will be known.
Regards,

USA320Pilot

Wrong, you still need 50%+1 of all eligble voters to vote in order to win an election if 50%+1 fail to vote you will be decertified.

How many organizing airline drives have you been involved with?

I was part of the largest Airline organizing win ever and many other drives.

Don't let the facts get in your way!

 

[USA320Pilot]

ALPA DCA Council 138 Update - September 22, 2007

Dear Fellow Pilots;

Here is the resolution passed by the US Airways MEC yesterday:

WHEREAS The Negotiating Committee is directed by a standing AAA MEC resolution that requires pay parity before resumption of JNC negotiations,

Therefore Be It Resolved that the AAA JNC will not attend the convening of the full JNC in Washington, DC, on Sept. 24th and 25th, nor participate in the JNC negotiations with the Company scheduled for Sept. 25th and 26th.

There is an on-going struggle occurring between the MEC and ALPA, as well as the company on achieving pay parity. The Executive Council’s recent actions on parity say that the only way to get parity is through the Joint Negotiating process. We see this as a misguided process, which puts the parity interests of the pilots of US Airways subordinate to many others.

The problem is this. The EC has said that because the Transition Agreement requires negotiations, your parity lies in the JNC process. The MEC, by unanimous resolution, has said that parity must come before the JNC process. Why? Because without parity first, it becomes part of a much larger joint agreement with the unfairness of the Nicolau award in the mix. We have continued to bargain in good faith, but don’t compel us, in those discussions, to trade for seniority for parity.

If all of our legal efforts fail, regardless of who the Union is, then whether the list is integrated or whether it remains separate, will be the result of agreement between the pilot groups and the company. Since we do not have parity now, some are hoping that getting parity for us as part of the JNC process will make us forget about the Nicolau Award. The leadership of the AWA pilots has expressed this view and has pushed hard to have the parity discussions occur only in the JNC process and not sooner. Doug Parker is on record saying that he has not given us parity in order to leverage “agreement†on the seniority list and thereby give him a unified carrier. And now the Executive Council says that parity can only come through the JNC process. While we are not surprised by the self interest of the first two (AWA wants the list, and Parker wants a single agreement to shop the airline around for future merger candidates), we do not understand or agree with the scenario set up by this latest Executive Council decision. It is an attempt, in our view, to force expedient compromise to benefit “all†pilots including those at AWA. A noble goal, some say. A unifying goal, some assert. But we see it as just the opposite -- the cost of such a strategy is that we US Airways pilots start negotiating from where we are now vs. where we should have been almost two years ago, when LCC came into existence – PAID EQUALLY.

The MEC, by its action, is asking the Executive Council and ALPA these questions: Should not your fight be to obliterate the B-Scale on this property? Is that not the hallmark of unionism and brotherhood on this property and elsewhere? What is the basis for the move to get into JNC negotiations? To get improvements for “everyone†on the property? But that means that payment on a bill long since overdue is further delayed. That is not brotherhood or unionism. It is expediency to splitting the baby. It is trying to make everybody happy rather than fighting the good fight, a fight that would serve to unify this group as nothing else can. Equal pay for equal work. No B-Scale. First Things First. This is where the resources of ALPA should be spent. This is why we are so frustrated at the JNC strategy set down by the Executive Council. It sends the wrong signal to AWA, to the company and to our own members -- that perhaps seniority is for sale, “for parity and parity plusâ€. And it is not, never has been, and never will be. That’s not hard line, or a threat, it’s just the reality of what the pilots of US Airways have been saying all along.

The Executive Council has also said that the Nicolau award will be passed. The MEC is on record there too. Remember, regardless of it being passed it CANNOT BE IMPLEMENTED until there is a ratified single agreement. And there will be no agreement with the Nicholau award intact. We would need protections of longevity for our once furloughed pilots, fences to capture the attrition we brought to the list, and protections in the event of any new merger or transactions. The America West pilots and their MEC will have to understand our resolve on those issues. That will dictate the timeline – not an arbitrary deadline. And the MEC says if you want to get on the beginning of that road it starts with parity.

We sincerely hope that the President of this union will join that fight. In his most recent letter, he says he will try to get parity, but only as a part of the JNC process. He must know that we cannot do that. Our pilots have told us repeatedly what they must have –Parity and Protections—in that order. We hope this is not a “Missiles of October†line in the sand. We trust that he will find the way to put the unified goal of NO B-SCALE as the first and foremost tenet of this union’s strategy to succeed. It was the rallying cry of this Association 18 years ago. We hope that history has not been forgotten. We hope that he will urge pressure on all parties to fix parity first, and not just put pressure on the US Airways pilots to join JNC talks without parity, as his recent letter suggests. There is still time to do that.

With or without that help, your MEC will continue that fight. Yesterday, the MEC started that process with our Grievance Committee for filing a TRO over the Company’s single operating certificate. We will continue that process using every resource available. We also continue to fight the Nicolau award in Superior Court through our law firm Baptiste and Wilder.

But, first things first, if you want Equal Pay for Equal Work then come and join us on the picket line this Thursday in DCA. This event is NOT about a joint contract. It is about your paycheck, not AWA or anybody else. Send the message to the Company and to your Association that we have priorities and that bills long overdue must be paid.

Fraternally,

Bob Sauer
Chairman

Don Baier
Vice Chairman

Steve Boveri
Sec/Treasurer

 

[700UW]

The East MEC is setting themselves up to be put in trusteeship.

 

[ableoneable]

The East MEC is setting themselves up to be put in trusteeship.

It does look like that's where they are headed. ALPA national is still trying to avoid it, but at the same time they have been building a case since May.

I do wonder what would happen if the east were offered pay parity. That would mean one rate for both narrow-body and wide-body aircraft.

Are the east 330/767 drivers willing to take a paycut for parity purposes?

 

[Cactus737]

Interesting update from DCA. From some posts I've read and even in that "hairy chested" update, I sense that everybody wants resolution to this.

The problem is, there's no consensus (from the East side) as to how to achieve resolution. Some want to re-arbitrate, some just want fences, some want to endure a lengthy long-shot legal battle, and some want there to be permanent separate operations. Assuming the West was amenable to ANY of those options, the likelihood of the East MEC agreeing to any of them is between slim and none.

 

[EastUS]

They may have made sacrifices that kept their company alive but I never worked there. I took a chance at a startup carrier instead. I gambled that my company would grow and survive instead of getting in at the bottom of a carrier like NW or US. I never applied at USAir for that reason and decided to blow off NW for the same reason. I figured that my downside gamble was that AWA might not survive. My upside gamble was that I was probably protected from any furlough due to my relative seniority at AWA.

Just curious....are you honestly, no kidding, seriously trying to sell the idea that, had you actually been offered a job elsewhere, that you would have picked AWA as your first choice?....and that such was a "smart" thing to have done?

"A never ending source of amusement"

 

[ableoneable]

Just curious....are you honestly, no kidding, seriously trying to sell the idea that, had you actually been offered a job elsewhere, that you would have picked AWA as your first choice?....and that such was a "smart" thing to have done?

"A never ending source of amusement"

I was at AWA and was looking around. I did not apply at US or Delta. (US because I thought that they were weak and Delta because their jr bases were geogrphically undisrable to me) I did not get on at UAL and I turned down NWA.

After about 1997 I decided that giving up my seniority at AWA for the bottom of anybody else was not the way I wanted to play it and I stopped looking.

Staying at AWA I was gambling that they would not go T.U. I was sufficiently senior as to gaurantee that I would not be furloghed as long as AWA survived. Though AWA' pay and benifits were well below peer carriers at the time I figured that this could well change over the course of my employment. I decided that it was not worth being on the bottom of a legacy list for the improved pay/retirement etc. that they offered at the time.

Everybody in my class at AWA that quit for NWA, UAL, DL, US and AMR spent time on the street. Some of them are still there. The pilots who went to UAL and DL are probably close to holding the left seat. Everyone else has no idea how long it will be before they get the chance.

Though I won't know the score until I am 60 (or 65 as the case may be) so far it looks like staying at AWA was the smart play.

 

[Phoenix]

The East MEC is setting themselves up to be put in trusteeship.

What do you think the East's MEC job is? Don't you know who they work for?

 

[Bear96]

Yesterday, the MEC started that process with our Grievance Committee for filing a TRO over the Company’s single operating certificate. We will continue that process using every resource available.

On what grounds?

To get injunctive relief (i.e., a TRO), the plaintiff must show a likelihood of success on the merits at trial. Good luck with that.

We also continue to fight the Nicolau award in Superior Court through our law firm Baptiste and Wilder.

Ah, so that's not dead after all.

Anyone have any updates? Is it in D.C. or federal court at this point? I recall it was filed in the D.C. courts, and then removed to federal by the defendants. Did the plaintiffs they try to get it remanded back to the D.C. courts? Anyone?

 

[RowUnderDCA]

I was at AWA and was looking around. I did not apply at US or Delta. (US because I thought that they were weak and Delta because their jr bases were geogrphically undisrable to me) I did not get on at UAL and I turned down NWA.

After about 1997 I decided that giving up my seniority at AWA for the bottom of anybody else was not the way I wanted to play it and I stopped looking.

Staying at AWA I was gambling that they would not go T.U. I was sufficiently senior as to gaurantee that I would not be furloghed as long as AWA survived. Though AWA' pay and benifits were well below peer carriers at the time I figured that this could well change over the course of my employment. I decided that it was not worth being on the bottom of a legacy list for the improved pay/retirement etc. that they offered at the time.

Everybody in my class at AWA that quit for NWA, UAL, DL, US and AMR spent time on the street. Some of them are still there. The pilots who went to UAL and DL are probably close to holding the left seat. Everyone else has no idea how long it will be before they get the chance.

Though I won't know the score until I am 60 (or 65 as the case may be) so far it looks like staying at AWA was the smart play.

This whole reasoning is pshyco. Seriously, I want my pilot to be a flight professional, not a economic clairvoyent. Accepting this premise that something like 80% of your career success has to do with luck, is crazy and un-American. This arbitrary and catastophic, risk-environment is not sustainable in the pilot profession and not sustainable in our society more broadly. This serves no purpose but to destry labor in the flight deck and transfer the costs of entreprenurial risk from the capital holders to the labor providers. You're all being duped. Businessmen have business plans and reap business rewards. Pilots should punch the clock and focus on safety of flight.

 

[BottomFeeder]

Everybody,

I haven't been here in a while (hold your applause) and I see I haven't missed much. Frankly, I stopped coming because I realized the futility of the banter here. I was venting MY frustrations, as are most other people here, but at the end of the day it doesn't get either of us anything.

In reality, I've been treated extremely well by East crews when I've traveled on East metal, and I've gone out of my way to make East crews comfortable when they've been traveling on one of my flights. There's something to be said for that, and it's made me feel stupid when I reflect on some of the things I've posted here. What has also helped change my attitude is when I picture Parker sitting in his office salivating over how he plans to take advantage of us all.

I don't know what the answer is, but I do have an idea of what won't work.

USAPA is one idea that won't work (at least now). Perhaps if USAPA were being started a few years from now, there'd be a reasonable chance of success. So let's go down this USAPA road for a bit and see where it will get us:

USAPA narrowly wins the election and begins attempting to "negotiate seniority" to the detriment of the West pilots:

• The West pilots don't pay dues, and do everything they can to undermine the new union.
  Which results in bad standing and you lose your right to vote or you can be fired.
  
• ALPA continues to vigorously defend the Nicolau Award to reinforce the legal precedent of the finality of binding arbitration.
  Yes, as long as ALPA is your union. When USAPA is elected as the new union. You will no longer belong to ALPA. Do you really think that ALPA is going to pay for litigation when you are not part of ALPA?
  
• The West pilots pool their resources and file multiple DFR lawsuits against USAPA. ALPA helps in any way they can.
  ALPA saves the day??? How long have you been around? ALPA helped the TWA guys. ALPA turned their heads to bring scabs into the union. Wake up, it is about money to ALPA!
  
• The company takes advantage of the turmoil, and starts moving flying around to the lowest bidder (no the East is not the lowest bidder - the lower pay rates are offset by the higher longevity). Therefore, no guarantee that the East captures *their* attrition. USAPA doesn't defend the TA violations because it doesn't intend upon complying with the TA.
  USAPA will free us from the political ALPA grasp. We can get a contract like that of AirTran, SouthWest, American. A union that is our's.
  
• ALPA helps the West pilots with litigation, etc, pro bono, and doesn't risk a DFR suit from the East pilots because they're no longer the bargaining agent.How long did it take to get your funds from ALPA? Did they hand them over easily? Now if you are no longer a ALPA union but are USAPA union due to an election. Do you think ALPA will throw money at you?
  
• Meanwhile, everybody still keeps working for their current wages. USAPA doesn't have the resources to get organized, negotiate away the Nicolau Award, defend DFR lawsuits, AND negotiate a raise wtih the company.
  Yes, with negative guys like you, that is a problem, the rest will have to pull your load as well.
  
• USAPA supporters begin to encounter FAA enforcement action and medical issues, and realize that USAPA is ill equiped to represent them in these issues like ALPA was able to.
  How does SWA, Jetblue, AirTran or anyone else do it?

And USA320 - it hasn't required much research to learn that you don't even have any credibility with your own pilots, so save your threats for somebody who is taking your seriously. Also, I think even us "rookies" have been around long enough to know that threats are nothing but a sign of desperation and weakness. I'm glad that you believe in what you're doing, but if I were you, I'd make contingency plans. I certainly have, and some of them are detailed above.

So now let's think about how Parker is going to try to use this to HIS advantage. Perhaps we can all at least agree that none of us want that? We can also agree that he and his drinking buddies are the ONLY ones who have benefited from this merger? Maybe Parker trying to screw us might be good common ground for us to begin moving somewhere together.

Money will never make it go away.

Just my thoughts.

 

[EastUS]

"ALPA helps in any way they can." That's absolutely, hands down, no question the funniest thing that I've EVER seen on these boards

 

[AWA320]

I don't know what the answer is, but I do have an idea of what won't work.

USAPA is one idea that won't work (at least now). Perhaps if USAPA were being started a few years from now, there'd be a reasonable chance of success. So let's go down this USAPA road for a bit and see where it will get us:

USAPA narrowly wins the election and begins attempting to "negotiate seniority" to the detriment of the West pilots:
The West pilots don't pay dues, and do everything they can to undermine the new union.

Which results in bad standing and you lose your right to vote or you can be fired.

Wrong BF, you just don't get it do you?? You would never ever EVER get agency shop period!!

ALPA continues to vigorously defend the Nicolau Award to reinforce the legal precedent of the finality of binding arbitration.
Yes, as long as ALPA is your union. When USAPA is elected as the new union. You will no longer belong to ALPA.

Do you really think that ALPA is going to pay for litigation when you are not part of ALPA?

Yes!! They have a responsibility to uphold and defend an award that was rendered under their representation! The finances alone would destroy USAPA within a matter of months. The AWA pilots would further file a seperate suit outside of ALPA against USAPA! We would cover our collective rears with an injunction against USAPA and company collecting dues until the case was solved, (escrow) the case would end very early as you would be bankrupt in months returning the escrow funds to the AWA pilots!! Wake up man, you can't keep making dumb decision after dumb decision, can you??

The West pilots pool their resources and file multiple DFR lawsuits against USAPA. ALPA helps in any way they can.
ALPA saves the day???

How long have you been around? ALPA helped the TWA guys. ALPA turned their heads to bring scabs into the union. Wake up, it is about money to ALPA!

You are correct, (for once) ALPA is about money, it has to be!! There are law suits, grievences, contract negotiations, FAA issues, security issues, governement affairs that effect our careers etc. All of this requires money and lots of it!! USAPA couldn't even begin to deal with all of those issues without serious money. So you see it has to be about the dollars.

The company takes advantage of the turmoil, and starts moving flying around to the lowest bidder (no the East is not the lowest bidder - the lower pay rates are offset by the higher longevity). Therefore, no guarantee that the East captures *their* attrition. USAPA doesn't defend the TA violations because it doesn't intend upon complying with the TA.

USAPA will free us from the political ALPA grasp. We can get a contract like that of AirTran, SouthWest, American. A union that is our's.

You must be completely out of your mind!!! We are currently in the ball park of an Airtran contract and maybe with all the termoil you east types have caused we'll get a little more. SWA they are bigger than we are and have their nitch market. They have the money but I don't want their contract as a whole! They work much longer hours often well over 95hrs a month, no thanks. AMR is under a concessionary agreement one and two, they are more than twice our combined size with SIGNIFICANT international presence. In short, we ain't nowhere close to AMR's league!!!

ALPA helps the West pilots with litigation, etc, pro bono, and doesn't risk a DFR suit from the East pilots because they're no longer the bargaining agent.How long did it take to get your funds from ALPA? Did they hand them over easily? Now if you are no longer a ALPA union but are USAPA union due to an election. Do you think ALPA will throw money at you?

They most certainly will as they have a duty to do so. They own both collective agreements and they must uphold and defend an award rendered under their policies and bylaws! This will not play well for USAPA in court. Bottom line, bankrupt in less than six months!!

Meanwhile, everybody still keeps working for their current wages. USAPA doesn't have the resources to get organized, negotiate away the Nicolau Award, defend DFR lawsuits, AND negotiate a raise wtih the company.

Yes, with negative guys like you, that is a problem, the rest will have to pull your load as well.

No brother that's not being negative, its being realistic!! You are content to throw your money away and that's your choice but don't ask us to throw away ours on your stupid moves!!

USAPA supporters begin to encounter FAA enforcement action and medical issues, and realize that USAPA is ill equiped to represent them in these issues like ALPA was able to.

How does SWA, Jetblue, AirTran or anyone else do it?

Because they have FULL BUY IN by all of their pilots!! Don't you get yet?? AWA will not contribute and will not be forced to by company or anyone else! What we will do is sue that much is for sure!

And USA320 - it hasn't required much research to learn that you don't even have any credibility with your own pilots, so save your threats for somebody who is taking your seriously. Also, I think even us "rookies" have been around long enough to know that threats are nothing but a sign of desperation and weakness. I'm glad that you believe in what you're doing, but if I were you, I'd make contingency plans. I certainly have, and some of them are detailed above.

So now let's think about how Parker is going to try to use this to HIS advantage. Perhaps we can all at least agree that none of us want that? We can also agree that he and his drinking buddies are the ONLY ones who have benefited from this merger? Maybe Parker trying to screw us might be good common ground for us to begin moving somewhere together.

Money will never make it go away.

Then you are an even bigger fool than I thought!! Money can make a whole bunch go away, including your misplaced fear that we in the west are lining up to wagon train east.

Just my thoughts.

Mine too!!!!