AAA ALPA Thread 9/28 to 10/5

[Richard]

OK New Week, New thread. Let's keep er on course folks....

 

[traderjake]

If you were the bottom Reserve First Officer on the East list for 5 years are you any more senior at year five than year one?

No, because seniority is your position relative to your coworkers, it is not length of service.

The job we held the day before the merger is more important than how long it took us to get that job.

 

[aquagreen73s]

If you were the bottom Reserve First Officer on the East list for 5 years are you any more senior at year five than year one?

No, because seniority is your position relative to your coworkers, it is not length of service.

The job we held the day before the merger is more important than how long it took us to get that job.

Trader,

Two questions: (1) do you share your views with your co-workers; and (2) if you do, how many agree with you?

Thanks.

 

[AAA73Pilot]

The following is excerpts from ALPA’s Administration Manual, section 40 Collective Bargaining;

Part 5----CONTENTS OF AGREEMENTS
In the negotiation of agreements, every reasonable effort shall be made to achieve and maintain the following:

C. Pay

1. ELIMINATION OF ALL "B SCALES"
SOURCE - Board 1992; Amended – Board 1998; Reaffirmed – Board 2006

Complete elimination of all "B-Scales" continues to be a top ALPA bargaining priority. Each agreement that contains a "B-Scale" shall include a Section 6 proposal to accomplish this objective. Each Negotiating Committee shall make every effort to achieve this goal and to improve "B-Scale" rates until it is achieved. ALPA shall adamantly oppose any management effort at further "B-Scale" incursion in pay or benefits or to establish any type of "C-Scale," using all legitimate means available.

H. SENIORITY

1. SYSTEM SENIORITY
SOURCE ‑ Executive Board July 1949; AMENDED ‑ Executive Board May 1986

It shall be ALPA's goal to achieve seniority Sections in all agreements. Such Sections shall embody the concept of system seniority, as opposed to base seniority or any other kind, as the method for delineating pilot relationships.



3. SENIORITY ‑ GENERAL
SOURCE ‑ Board 1956; AMENDED ‑ Executive Board December 1971; Administrative January 1998 (Canada Reference Added); Executive Board September 1998

a. Seniority of a pilot shall be based upon the length of service as a pilot with the Company.

b. Seniority shall begin to accrue from the date upon which a pilot employed by the Company as a pilot begins initial operational training required to perform such duties in airline operations and shall continue to accrue during such period of employment except as otherwise provided in his agreement. The date upon which a pilot first appears upon the Company's payroll as a pilot and begins initial operational training required to perform such duties in airline operations shall establish such pilot's position on the System Seniority List. When two or more pilots are placed on the seniority list on the same date, they shall be placed on such list according to their age; i.e., the oldest pilot shall receive the lowest number, except where prohibited by law.




d. Seniority shall govern all pilots in case of promotion and demotion, their retention in case of reduction in force, their assignment or reassignment due to expansion or reduction in schedules, their reemployment after release due to reduction in schedules, their reemployment after release due to reduction in force, and their choice of vacancies, provided that the pilot's qualifications are sufficient for the operation to which he is to be assigned. In the event that a pilot is considered by the Company not to be sufficiently qualified, the Company shall immediately furnish such pilot written reasons therefore.

Comment: Interesting goals in collective bargaining.

 

[PayParity]

The following is excerpts from ALPA’s Administration Manual, section 40 Collective Bargaining;

Part 5----CONTENTS OF AGREEMENTS
In the negotiation of agreements, every reasonable effort shall be made to achieve and maintain the following:

a. Seniority of a pilot shall be based upon the length of service as a pilot with the Company.

And these are key

It doesn't say that it HAS to be done some way or other it says an effort will be made.

It also doesn't mention mergers. This is a new company everyone has the same length of service with this new Company. Seniority has to be settled by merging the lists.

 

[P51Pilot]

If you were the bottom Reserve First Officer on the East list for 5 years are you any more senior at year five than year one?

No, because seniority is your position relative to your coworkers, it is not length of service.

The job we held the day before the merger is more important than how long it took us to get that job.

That analogy is a house of cards and falls apart as time moves forward. It's a snapshot and not dynamic and does not reflect any number of items.

The fact is that US Airways still exists is due to the huge sacrifices that it's pilot group made by way of pay cuts, work rules, pension termination, furloughs etc. Relative seniority does not account for these sacrifices, nor the fact that in the example you referenced that individual may be scheduled to retire in the top 100 or top 50 and will rapidly advance due purely to attrition. What you propose would transfer the time vested in his craft, benefits, and the payoff for his/her sacrifices to someone else over time beginning one day after the snapshot(relative seniority) integration.

 

[exB717Flyer]

The majority of East pilots would prefer to live under LOA 93 and prevent the Nicolau Award than to obtain a new contract and have the Nicolau Award implemented..

You keep saying this but it's yet to be proven. Why not negotiate a joint CBA and put it vote so we can find out? Since you know you're right you have nothing to fear.

 

[Benz M-100]

You keep saying this but it's yet to be proven. Why not negotiate a joint CBA and put it vote so we can find out? Since you know you're right you have nothing to fear.

This point would have validity if the east rank and file were clamoring for a joint contract. Obviously they aren't. EVERYONE I have flown with and conversed with since May, MANY of whom are in the 517 btw, want NOTHING to do with a joint contract until or unless all possible remedies to this "award" are attempted. This may change over time, but it hasn't as yet and I don't expect there will be much change in sentiment any time soon. If a pie-in-the-sky contract offer is made by mgt we will see of this changes. but for now...NO.

 

[P51Pilot]

You keep saying this but it's yet to be proven. Why not negotiate a joint CBA and put it vote so we can find out? Since you know you're right you have nothing to fear.

Because the membership is speaking and our MEC members are listening to the membership. We don't spend 1.95% of our paycheck to have the union act against our interests. We had $225/hr for narrow body Captains, we had a DB retirement plan among other things. It came and went, so to expect this group to be foolish enough to gamble our seniority for a sub prime loan(Company offered CBA), isn't realistic and the MEC is fulfilling it's obligation to the membership, given the rules of engagement they have to operate with.

Hopefully in the not to distant future, there will be a new agent for this group and we will all have to just wait and see what it offers. For the East group, anything is better than ALPO and its failures.

 

[BottomFeeder]

You keep saying this but it's yet to be proven. Why not negotiate a joint CBA and put it vote so we can find out? Since you know you're right you have nothing to fear.

exB717Flyer,

We are waiting for USAPA to negotiate our next contract. BTW the card count is plenty high enough already and that includes a very large margin. Going to the mail box every day and having additional cards show up is a wonderful thing. We could have not done it with out your guys on this webboard.

Many Thanks

 

[BottomFeeder]

Because the membership is speaking and our MEC members are listening to the membership. We don't spend 1.95% of our paycheck to have the union act against our interests. We had $225/hr for narrow body Captains, we had a DB retirement plan among other things. It came and went, so to expect this group to be foolish enough to gamble our seniority for a sub prime loan(Company offered CBA), isn't realistic and the MEC is fulfilling it's obligation to the membership, given the rules of engagement they have to operate with.

Very True


Hopefully in the not to distant future, there will be a new agent for this group and we will all have to just wait and see what it offers. For the East group, anything is better than ALPO and its failures.

Go ahead and make a wish. 😉

 

[exB717Flyer]

Because the membership is speaking and our MEC members are listening to the membership.

Oh really? Tell me again why your MEC didn't give you access to the daily arbitration hearing transcripts? I read some of the daily "summaries": everything was going great, the AWA guys looked like fools, we will prevail! The transcripts revealed something much different. Your MEC has lost every ill-advised battle so far. (Do you really expect the law suit to yield anything?) Either your faith in them is misplaced, your demands of them are unrealistic, or both.

For the East group, anything is better than ALPO and its failures.

Such a glutton for punishment! You're setting yourself up for failure again. A new union will not improve your situation and very likely will cause it to suffer. And I'm not even talking about the Nicolau decision. How do I know this? I've been an ALPA member at three different carriers (four if you include USAirways), an APA, and Teamsters Airline Division member. Each union was better at some things than others but all-in-all it was just more of the same. Changing unions is no panacea. Instead of facing reality you're scapegoating. And before you think I'm some cheerleader for ALPA I'll remind you that I'm ex-TWA and a member of a class-action DFR lawsuit against ALPA for them selling us out versus AA. I'm a pragmatist and I try to keep emotion out of my important decisions. Dumping ALPA may give you some feeling of catharsis but in reality you lose leverage against the company and spend a lot of money setting up infrastructure and fighting lawsuits. But hey, don't take my word for it. The impending "I told you so" won't give me any more pleasure than you'll receive from it.

 

[exB717Flyer]

We are waiting for USAPA to negotiate our next contract.

Splendid. No doubt their negotiaters will be far more skilled than all the others.

BTW the card count is plenty high enough already and that includes a very large margin.

Ah, the delicate sound of chest-thumping. I fully expect there to be a representational election. The results of said election may disappoint you greatly.

 

[BottomFeeder]

A new union will not improve your situation and very likely will cause it to suffer. And I'm not even talking about the Nicolau decision. How do I know this? I've been an ALPA member at three different carriers (four if you include USAirways), an APA, and Teamsters Airline Division member. Each union was better at some things than others but all-in-all it was just more of the same. Changing unions is no panacea. Instead of facing reality you're scapegoating. And before you think I'm some cheerleader for ALPA I'll remind you that I'm ex-TWA and a member of a class-action DFR lawsuit against ALPA for them selling us out versus AA. I'm a pragmatist and I try to keep emotion out of my important decisions. Dumping ALPA may give you some feeling of catharsis but in reality you lose leverage against the company and spend a lot of money setting up infrastructure and fighting lawsuits. But hey, don't take my word for it. The impending "I told you so" won't give me any more pleasure than you'll receive from it.

Sorry but your MEC has drawn a line in your sand and it will not work for the East.

ALPA is dead... at least here.

 

[767jetz]

USA320pilot said:

The majority of East pilots would prefer to live under LOA 93 and prevent the Nicolau Award than to obtain a new contract and have the Nicolau Award implemented.

Guess what? It will never happen unless there is what Paul Rice calls a "realistic solution".

The AWA pilots will chase the widebody flying, there are 300 AWA pilots who live east of the Mississippi River who will bid east, and AWA F/O’s will come east to be blockholding Captain’s. Therefore, East pilots might get an hourly pay rate increase, but many pilots will be bumped back to reserve and then have the same gross pay as today.

And, guess what the East pilots will keep all of this when USAPA becomes the new bargaining agent for both the East and West pilots in about 4 months.

I have to laugh to myself every time I read this claim about the East being happy to live with LOA93 forever if necessary, then picketing and crying to the media and anyone who will listen about how unfair this bankruptcy contract is to them and how badly they want pay parity. The duality of their persona is sadly humorous. Especially when you realize that they have the process in place to get pay parity, yet choose not to pursue it because it is not going to happen on their terms.

I don’t understand why you keep quoting Paul Rice’s “realistic solutions†because it only goes against your own argument. By realistic solutions he is referring to the East coming off their “DOH/LOS†mantra. That is where the solution begins. You will never, ever get your DOH in this or any other merger because you are simply not entitled to it. And everyone but your group understands this irrefutable truth.

You will see a TA presented for membership ratification that includes significant pay and quality of life improvements for everyone (not just the few who will may upgrade in the next year or so), a reasonable timetable for implementation of the award (which will take care of those who will upgrade soon), and provisions limiting the West from flooding east and taking flying (and preventing anyone from bumping to reserve). The company and ALPA know what the target is to get a contract ratified and will shoot slightly above that to ensure it. All you have to do is listen to the growing number of pilots like Jetz to see that your camp is losing support. Heck, just ask the pilots who picketed in BOS if they would accept a major pay raise! But we will see by the end of the year, won’t we? It will be clear when the TA is voted on who was right. Then one of us will either admit to being wrong or make excuses.

By the way, what happened to the representational vote that was going to happen? Is it still “any day†or is it now 4 months away again?