I heard from my best friend who's based at JFK that he heard from a reliable source that AA will be making a big announcement. He thinks that we'll merge with USAir to help them from going under. Has anyone heard anything about it?
Aa's Big Announcement On Feb, 2005
- Thread starter okoge1027
- Start date
Let's see...
1. Incompatible fleet types. AA has no Airbii other than the Scarebus 300.
2. Overlapping facilities & routes. There are no major cities served by US Airways that are not also served by AA. What would be the competitive advantage to AMR for buying US Airways?
And, the piece de resistance...
3. US Airways has very senior pilots and flight attendants. Considering what AA has gone through with the AA-TWA combination, why does anyone think they would want to go through that round of lawsuits and countersuits and bad press and employee ill-will all over again?
AMR management might be stupid, but I don't think they are crazy.
1. Incompatible fleet types. AA has no Airbii other than the Scarebus 300.
2. Overlapping facilities & routes. There are no major cities served by US Airways that are not also served by AA. What would be the competitive advantage to AMR for buying US Airways?
And, the piece de resistance...
3. US Airways has very senior pilots and flight attendants. Considering what AA has gone through with the AA-TWA combination, why does anyone think they would want to go through that round of lawsuits and countersuits and bad press and employee ill-will all over again?
AMR management might be stupid, but I don't think they are crazy.
The only possible value that any part of US Air would have to AA is the shuttle, and that can be bought on the courthouse steps when Lakefield finally shuts the door. U has a disfunctional fleet mix, rabid competition from SW and JB, a employee workforce that is either completely PO's or demoralized, and HUGE debts. AA has enough debt of their own to worry about. Further, U's unions would pitch a fit if pilots didn't go with the airplanes, and the APA with almost 3000 of their own pilots on furlough would have a tough time acquiesing to taking any pilots from another carrier. If Arpey even suggested "merging" with U, I think the BODs would have him carted out of the room in a straight jacket.
The prize that AA wants is parts of UAL, namely Pacific routes and addtional 777s.
Think of AA as a man in very leaky boat and US Air as a boat anchor. Not much synergy there. U is all but finished. Even the huge concessions that Lakefield is trying to extort from employees can save their management's feckless business model and their self-serving executives.
The prize that AA wants is parts of UAL, namely Pacific routes and addtional 777s.
Think of AA as a man in very leaky boat and US Air as a boat anchor. Not much synergy there. U is all but finished. Even the huge concessions that Lakefield is trying to extort from employees can save their management's feckless business model and their self-serving executives.
WorldTraveler
Corn Field
- Dec 5, 2003
- 21,709
- 10,721
While I don't think AA will buy US in its current situation, it is foolish to think that AMR will never be interested in US. First, it is very unlikely that US will be able to come up with a plan to exit bankruptcy and stay out so creditors, management, and employees will be looking for a knight in shining armor. US' creditors could well see AMR as a very plausible entity to take over US' obligations. Many of US' creditors are probably also AA's creditors; they would thus be more willing to work w/ AA to protect the creditors and make it possible for AA to do a deal. Second, bankruptcy does provide the opportunity to jettison excess assets which cannot be done outside of bankruptcy. Third, AA does possess some valuable assets including a pretty strong position on the east coast which AA could certainly use to fill in the blanks in AA's system. Fourth, don't assume that the fleet compatibility issue is a done deal. Businesses make deals if the price is right. If AA can get a good enough deal on the Airbus aircraft, don't rule out that they would not end up in AA's fleet. The S80s are getting old and will need to be replaced in the not too distant future. However, as I've pointed out, swapping of aircraft fleets could well be a part of larger consolidation in the industry. ie AA could acquire US' assets and then swap the A320s with NW for Boeing aircraft which NW might gain in an acquisition of CO. Finally, AA really needs to get over the idea that they will be able to acquire UA's Pacific routes. UA is far too valuable for it to be carved up in pieces. If it comes to a contest for UA between AA and DL, DL will certainly win because there is only a very small portion of UA's network which AA can acquire because of the substantial overlap between AA and UA already. DL is well on the road to turning itself, will have lower costs than AA after its turnaround plan is executed, and still has considerable assets available which it could sell in order to improve its position such that it could acquire UA. You might be interested to know that DL's loans with GE specifically allow DL to participate in merger and acquisition activity as long as DL is the surviving carrier and GE's interests are protected. Check out DL's 8K filing on Dec 6 detailing the closing of the Amex and GE agreements.
There is a growing recognition that consolidation is necessary to allow the industry to correct its woes. AA, DL, and NW will be the three airlines that will drive consolidation in the legacy carrier segment of the industry. None will foolishly throw their money away but they will acquire industry assets where it makes sense to strengthen their networks. As happens every time the industry is in this position, the weakest carriers through their pricing policies are dragging down the rest of the industry. Don't think for a minute that US is not seriously damaging AA's revenues in the Caribbean - a problem AA would like to fix.
I'm certain AA employees don't want to even consider the thought of another nasty acquisition but AMR has shown before that it will think strategically and do what makes sense for the company even if doing so is not in the employees best interests; companies protect the interests of its owners before they consider the interests of employees.
It would be nice if AA could acquire a company and make it work for everyone's benefit but we can all hope, can't we?
There is a growing recognition that consolidation is necessary to allow the industry to correct its woes. AA, DL, and NW will be the three airlines that will drive consolidation in the legacy carrier segment of the industry. None will foolishly throw their money away but they will acquire industry assets where it makes sense to strengthen their networks. As happens every time the industry is in this position, the weakest carriers through their pricing policies are dragging down the rest of the industry. Don't think for a minute that US is not seriously damaging AA's revenues in the Caribbean - a problem AA would like to fix.
I'm certain AA employees don't want to even consider the thought of another nasty acquisition but AMR has shown before that it will think strategically and do what makes sense for the company even if doing so is not in the employees best interests; companies protect the interests of its owners before they consider the interests of employees.
It would be nice if AA could acquire a company and make it work for everyone's benefit but we can all hope, can't we?
WorldTraveler said:
If AA is interested in US Airs most valuable assets, then AA should just let it die and pick up the pieces it wants. It should have done this with TWA. It makes no sense to take the people and pay them on our payscales and have the integration problems. I have nothing against the people at US, they are good people doing their jobs (just like the TWA people) but like the TWA people, they will want to take their seniority from a dead company and use it at AA to take nAAtive jobs. Arpey has to realize there will be an uproar among nAAtives if this occurs. The only way to go is to acquire slots and gates only and if the US Air people want to work for AA then they have to start at the bottom of the pay scale and seniority lists, just as the EAL people had to do when AA acquired the Latin American routes.
okoge1027 said:
IN BANKRUPCY, ALL PARTIES CONCERNED MUST KNOW ALL DEALS.
THIS MERGER/BUYOUT HAS NOT BEEN DISCUSSED.
AA WILL NOT ADD TO THEIR DEBT UNLESS IT IS BACKED BUY COLATERAL SUCH AS AN ORDER FOR NEW AIRCRAFT. (HINT... HINT).
THE TIMING IS VERY WRONG RIGHT NOW.
A NEW TERMINAL IS SCHEDUALED TO BE IN OPERATION AT DFW IN 2005, LARGER INTEREST PAYMENTS THAN 2004 ARE DUE AND INCREASED PENSION PAYMENTS.
I would just laugh at this proposition except AA management has already shown their stupidity by buying TWA.This would bury AA in debt and the last thing we need right now is more capacity not to mention the damage to an already low morale among the employee groups.
"The TWA transaction is quite different. TWA is one way or another going to disappear as a corporate entity. So what we're doing by acquiring TWA is simply preserving 21,000 jobs and a very important and vital hub operation in St. Louis," Carty said.
LGA Fleet Service
Veteran
I know that come 08 January there are 70+ clerks getting bounced from JFK and coming to LGA, with the accompanying downgrades and layoffs.
Our new manager of ramp services (Smart cookie that she is) has decided to eliminate 7 CC slots and gate manning here.
In her infinite wisdom she has also decided to eliminate inbounds (The guys who run the bags from the gate to the claim belts).
She figures she can send a five person crew out to a turn to handle all aspects of the flight,cabin service, running the inbound bags as well as loading the outbound.
Clerk one has to load bags into carts, drive said carts to the local belt and unload the bags.Okay, not a bad idea...what happens when you have FLL 757 coming in with 180+ bags? Right, send a second clerk with him to dump the bags.
Meanwhile, you only have three guys left on the gate, and two of those have to go upstairs and clean the cabin.Two guys on a 57, that'll work out well wont it?
Think those 20 minute cleaning deadlines are going to be met? :blink:
Last guy has to set up the flight, hook up the tow bar and tractor,water the aircraft and set up the loaders for the outbound.
This all sounds good right?
What happens when you get into an OSO? It's rained basically every day here in NY this week, her "Plan 2005" as she calls it would have resulted in even longer delays in every area of the operation.
What about when it starts snowing and all the deicing qualified clerks are pulled out of the operation?
Three man crews to dump,run,clean and reload? Great! We'll take even more and longer delays now!
You go Sophia, your "Plan 2005" is going to ensure you are the shortest serving Manager of Ramp Services we've ever had at La Guardia...
Our new manager of ramp services (Smart cookie that she is) has decided to eliminate 7 CC slots and gate manning here.
In her infinite wisdom she has also decided to eliminate inbounds (The guys who run the bags from the gate to the claim belts).
She figures she can send a five person crew out to a turn to handle all aspects of the flight,cabin service, running the inbound bags as well as loading the outbound.
Clerk one has to load bags into carts, drive said carts to the local belt and unload the bags.Okay, not a bad idea...what happens when you have FLL 757 coming in with 180+ bags? Right, send a second clerk with him to dump the bags.
Meanwhile, you only have three guys left on the gate, and two of those have to go upstairs and clean the cabin.Two guys on a 57, that'll work out well wont it?
Think those 20 minute cleaning deadlines are going to be met? :blink:
Last guy has to set up the flight, hook up the tow bar and tractor,water the aircraft and set up the loaders for the outbound.
This all sounds good right?
What happens when you get into an OSO? It's rained basically every day here in NY this week, her "Plan 2005" as she calls it would have resulted in even longer delays in every area of the operation.
What about when it starts snowing and all the deicing qualified clerks are pulled out of the operation?
Three man crews to dump,run,clean and reload? Great! We'll take even more and longer delays now!
You go Sophia, your "Plan 2005" is going to ensure you are the shortest serving Manager of Ramp Services we've ever had at La Guardia...
aafsc said:
I think it would be great if AMR's interest in a buyout of US was valid and sincere. My dad worked for AA for forty years before he retired; and my heart has always belonged to AA anyway. I have no desire to take any job away from any deserving nAAtive employee. As for starting at the bottom of the pay scale and seniority list I disagree. When Piedmont Airlines "merged" (yeah, sure we did) with USAir we were only given credit for half our seniority. That's why we now have a hire date and a classification date at USAirways. And as for pay scale, I was making 22 dollars an hour two years ago, I'm making 15 dollars an hour now, and by the time AMR could close a deal to buy out US I will probably be making 12 dollars an hour. I don't know where that lands on AMR's payscale but I just want an honest days wage for an honest days work. Like I said, I've got a lot of friends at AA; and I've always wanted to work for the Big Blue Eagle anyway. I would hope that my friends at AA would be as proud to have me be a part of their team as I would be to be a part of theirs. US was, and always will be, a dead horse and a flying pig. Long live the Speed Bird and The Big Blue Eagle! I wish AMR would have bought Piedmont in '89.
Good Luck to All.
RRH
The Lazarusman
FSA Lead
USAirways DFW
TheLazarusman said:
Lazarusman, first I want to wish you the best of luck because of the situation you are in . I was in your situation at one time (I'm ex-EAL). It is funny that you say that you don't want to take a job from a nAAtive because that is exaactly what the TWA people were saying when the AA/TW deal was announced. The TWA people got their TWA seniority in regards to pay, vacation, benefits, etc. The only thing they did not get was their union seniority everywhere. The mechanics and ramp got it all (union and company seniority) in STL and MCI. They got 25% of their TWA union seniority in certain cities. In the rest of the cities it is 4/10/01, the day the AA/TWA transaction closed. They waived their seniority protection in bankruptcy court as a condition for AA to purchase TWA's assets and offer them employment. Now, after the deal is done, they are trying "unwaive" their seniority protection through the courts. They want (and have always wanted) it all. TWA like US Air had a very senior workforce, due to lack of growth and profitability. They thought that they were just going to skate right into AA and go to the top of the seniority lists. If AA were to make a similar deal with US, I am sure the same thing would happen again, the US people would demand their US seniority at AA. It did not bother me that the TWA people got their seniority in terms of pay and vacations (although it did bother other nAAtives) and I can live with the arbitrators decision. What bothers me is the TWA people on these boards who "want it all" (meaning their full union TWA seniority everywhere) and who feel entitled to my job. IF AA decided to do a deal with US then it probably
be just like the AA/TWA deal. But I doubt it will happen because were still suffering from the TWA deal (lawsuits) and the fact it will really make nAAtives even more angry. Plus a deal like that with US would be very costly to AA. Believe it or not the nAAtives and former TWA people get along pretty good working together even though we have different views on the union seniority issue and IF similar deal was to happen between AA and US, I'm sure nAAtives and US people would get along just as well. You can have differing views but still work together.
aafsc said:
Thanks for your comments; and I don't know about the rest of my coworkers but I am not so high and mighty to expect a rescuing entity to offer us full pay and full seniority. I honestly think anything better than bottom of the totem pole would be fair and equitable. Like I said before, I think those of us who are wanting to stay just want an honest days pay for an honest days work; and we're not trying to take anything from anybody who'se got it coming to them. I don't want someone else's job; I just want to keep my own. I kind of think the whole TWA deal went down sort of screwed up; but that doesn't mean that a US/AA deal would have to go down the same way. For all you nAAtives out there, I'm not looking for a chance to work in place of you, I'm looking for an opportunity to work along side you.
Ken MacTiernan
Veteran
LGA Fleet Service said:I know that come 08 January there are 70+ clerks getting bounced from JFK and coming to LGA, with the accompanying downgrades and layoffs.
Our new manager of ramp services (Smart cookie that she is) has decided to eliminate 7 CC slots and gate manning here.
In her infinite wisdom she has also decided to eliminate inbounds (The guys who run the bags from the gate to the claim belts).
She figures she can send a five person crew out to a turn to handle all aspects of the flight,cabin service, running the inbound bags as well as loading the outbound.
Clerk one has to load bags into carts, drive said carts to the local belt and unload the bags.Okay, not a bad idea...what happens when you have FLL 757 coming in with 180+ bags? Right, send a second clerk with him to dump the bags.
Meanwhile, you only have three guys left on the gate, and two of those have to go upstairs and clean the cabin.Two guys on a 57, that'll work out well wont it?
Think those 20 minute cleaning deadlines are going to be met? :blink:
Last guy has to set up the flight, hook up the tow bar and tractor,water the aircraft and set up the loaders for the outbound.
This all sounds good right?
What happens when you get into an OSO? It's rained basically every day here in NY this week, her "Plan 2005" as she calls it would have resulted in even longer delays in every area of the operation.
What about when it starts snowing and all the deicing qualified clerks are pulled out of the operation?
Three man crews to dump,run,clean and reload? Great! We'll take even more and longer delays now!
You go Sophia, your "Plan 2005" is going to ensure you are the shortest serving Manager of Ramp Services we've ever had at La Guardia...
[post="228032"][/post]
AA will never get rid of people like your Sophia! Now remember, everyone in Sophia's "Plan 2005" must accomplish thier new tasks with smiles because a passenger may be looking.
She wants all this done with a 5 person crew? Fine. Do what you can with what you have. Bags don't get unloaded/loaded in time? Lavs/water servicing don't get done in time? Who cares? AA? Ha! In maintenance AA decided that we shouldn't look at certain parts/systems of an a/c when it terminates for the evening. Guess what, we took unnecessary delays and cancellations. But it was cost effective! A manager told us that AA OVER INSPECTED our aircraft compared to other carriers.
So, your Sophia is perfect material to be promoted. Good luck.
