AFA Labor Discussion (Work Conditions) 7-7 -

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Nov 4, 2007
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With due deference this thread is at 45 pages and is mostly about contract talks yet is titled working conditions. The popularity and participation of this board has been adversely affected by the need to post everything under one topic, yet there are still posters that would like to engage in discussion.

Can you start a new AFA thread?

Thanks.
 
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ggiby

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Jan 22, 2005
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I can't believe what I hear from flight attendants on the line. Some of it is really out there so I agree with Mike about stopping the rumors. Believe it or not there ARE a few on here that have attended meetings continually and KNOW for certain items that are being pushed fourth by the JNC. We have heard specific information directly from Mike's mouth at one meeting only for it to change at another. I just read that MEC letter put in our files but ya know what....BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH. You are going to bring a "finished" product to the membership and I'm telling you as I sit here and type IT WILL FAIL. John McCorkle NEEDS, MUST and should be REQUIRED by the membership to get this meeting scheduled with Mike and "cough...cough" Carol in attendance. Here are just a few of the reasons people will vote no.

1. PBS and the "unknowing and grey areas". NO! !
1a. A meeting to like CLT had would help with the "unknown". Not VOTING DAY
2. The reserve section. NO! !
3. Holiday restriction (in any fashion) NO!
4. No FULL restoration of lost East f/a vacation. NO! !

This is information that is FACTUAL. There are two items on this very short list that are enough for me to shoot this baby out of the sky.
VOTE NO.... VOTE NO..... VOTE NO
I expect at the very least to get back all given wages that I have given up over the last 10 years. I want my vacation back. I want 100 percent sick pay back....
If you look at another thread on this board there is one entitled " USAirways Profits to soar" w/ soaring profits... we can get our money back that we have been giving up for so many of the past years.
 

BoeingBoy

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Nov 9, 2003
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If you look at another thread on this board there is one entitled " USAirways Profits to soar" w/ soaring profits... we can get our money back that we have been giving up for so many of the past years.

This is not meant to imply that you shouldn't get the best of both contracts plus more. Just to point out that an analyst (and retired pilot) is the one saying that about US profits, and like all comparisons to US profitability in the past is comparing his expectation to pre-merger HP and post-merger US (thus excluding even higher profits that pre-merger US earned in the past). Time will tell how good this guy's crystal ball is.

Jim
 

flybynite

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Nov 20, 2006
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Charlotte NC
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With due deference this thread is at 45 pages and is mostly about contract talks yet is titled working conditions. The popularity and participation of this board has been adversely affected by the need to post everything under one topic, yet there are still posters that would like to engage in discussion.

Can you start a new AFA thread?

Thanks.

Well, we did have 2 threads.....one for labor and another for working conditions. They just kind of bled into one another.
go figure B)
 

Travelpro72

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Jan 30, 2005
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Considering how many flight attendants commute at this airline everyone should be EXTREMELY interested in hearing the not very public section of the pilot rest requirements called "Fit For Duty". It is an "Advisory Circular" or "AC". If this severely restricts an employees ability to commute AT ALL before a longer trip you will see many flight attendants wanting their name removed from that "No to splitting" petition going around. Does anyone have any info on the specifics of this?
 
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VAflyGal

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But Travel, Team MF have promised us the best language in an "industry-leading contract." I'm sure they are savvy enough to circumnavigate any restrictive and unsavory parts of the "me too." After all they are promising "as good or better" everything to we weary ones.
*head spins around*
 

flybynite

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Nov 20, 2006
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Considering how many flight attendants commute at this airline everyone should be EXTREMELY interested in hearing the not very public section of the pilot rest requirements called "Fit For Duty". It is an "Advisory Circular" or "AC". If this severely restricts an employees ability to commute AT ALL before a longer trip you will see many flight attendants wanting their name removed from that "No to splitting" petition going around. Does anyone have any info on the specifics of this?

I read the thing last week and I did scan that part of it too. But I was really more focused on the sliding scale for rest requirements. If I remember correctly, the AC is more about the pilots self assessing themselves being fit to fly when commuting.

Go to the pilots's thread and somewhere around page 40, I think, Boeing Boy posted it.

Just keep in mind, this thing is all about the pilots. The FAA doesn't think f/a's exist or need any rest either for that matter. <_<
 

BoeingBoy

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Nov 9, 2003
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This NPRM, if it becomes effective, affects pilots only. However, with the "me too" language the flight/duty/rest provisions would "pass through" to the East FA's (assuming that there is still the East/West division or the combined contract includes the "me too" language).

The FAA did say that future proposals may address the same areas for FA's.

Jim
 

songbirdstew

Senior
Sep 10, 2003
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Bottom line is this:
Do NOT give away work rules (i.e. duty rigs, sick, vacation, rest, etc.) for money. If they dangle a carrot of ca$h in front of you look at how it will affect your quality of life. What good is a substantial raise if you are gone from home more away from your family and flying is your life. All the $$ in the world is not worth that. Remember when we got 90 hours in 12 days? Now it takes 16 days just to get 80...if you're lucky. I honestly don't care about staying with the pilots--I don't give a crap who's flying the plane---just give me THE SAME OR BETTER THAN THEY HAVE---nothing less, only more !!
DO NOT GIVE AWAY WORK RULES---YOU CAN ALWAYS GET A PAY RAISE BUT ONCE WORK RULES ARE GONE IT'S A HORRENDOUS PROCESS TO GET THEM BACK.
We're seeing that right now !!
Just my opinion.
 
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Travelpro72

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Not to drag the "me-too" discussion any further but many are afraid of the company jacking with the f/a's more than they already do. They abuse so many of the sections that are pretty clear as it is. What would prevent the company from screwing with you and saying "grieve it" while you still have to fly? It certainly CAN happen. THAT is my only, only, only worry about splitting. I want super simple language that a child could understand with NO room for interpretation. Even then I wouldn't be convinced 100%. After finishing my last trip I'll tell you one thing I'm ready to vomit over hearing when it comes to splitting..."back at Piedmont, back at Piedmont, back at Piedmont". Good God people that was 20+ years ago. I know we have some wackjobs here in control but seriously? I think it would be a BIT more streamlined and dare I say updated in the process. :rolleyes:
 
Nov 4, 2007
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That's really the crux of the problem.

AWA has no credibility. Sure, we all would like a new contract, but change means learning a new system, and during the learning process the "screw" factor is manifest in ways we can only imagine. If there was some way of creating immediate punitive damages within the system to protect the F/A group, then maybe our acceptance of new and improved ways of scheduling would be easier. As it is now, we're all battle scarred and gun shy and the known is the devil we know. Anyone who criticizes a hunker down menatality has clearly not lost what we have or must possess a rather shallow consciousness.

It is my belief that most F/As could care less about who is flying the a/c. Do I believe that CRM is better when a crew stays together? Absolutely. Does that mean I can't evacuate an a/c without it? Uh uh. Separating from the pilots scheduling wise is not an issue to me. The Me-too? Oh yeah. These are two separate things.

Me-too is not negotiable.

Schedule separation while not optimal is negotiable----but guess what? YOU GOTTA PAY ME FOR IT.

Newsflash: none of this is free and ten bucks won't cover it. You want it? Pay me.

In the final analysis: vote for / against what you want. The union and the company will portray whatever they spit out as the best deal you can get. Guess what? US can ill afford a strike and this contract, while abysmal still retains small unique work rules that mean a great deal. Do NOT just roll over and let them have your work rules, you won't see them again.
 
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FlyGuyBWI

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Feb 12, 2003
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It looks like the JNC and MEC(s) might have trouble selling a T/A to the group ... there is a big NO VOTE building ... just fly a few weekend 4-days, and listen ...
 

HP2USFA

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Oct 8, 2008
217
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El Mirage, Arizona
In the final analysis: vote for / against what you want. The union and the company will portray whatever they spit out as the best deal you can get. Guess what? US can ill afford a strike and this contract, while abysmal still retains small unique work rules that mean a great deal. Do NOT just roll over and let them have your work rules, you won't see them again.

You're probably right. They can't afford a strike.

However they're not going to have to worry about that.

There is no self-help option during Merged negotiations and the NMB has already made it clear they will not release us to Section 6 Negotiations while progress is being made on a merged contract. And like it or not progress is being made.

So, rethink the hold out and strike mentality... cause it's NOT an option. There is no time frame and there is no strike/chaos.

I personally find it frustrating that my quality of life will be held hostage in a vain attempt to return to contract provision that will never see the light of day again. We will never EVER see the pre-2000 contract back on this property and you all know it. Parts of it, perhaps, but not the choice little bits I hear folks saying their gonna vote no over.
 

ebwgs

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Aug 23, 2004
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I personally find it frustrating that my quality of life will be held hostage in a vain attempt to return to contract provision that will never see the light of day again. We will never EVER see the pre-2000 contract back on this property and you all know it. Parts of it, perhaps, but not the choice little bits I hear folks saying their gonna vote no over.

Hello HP. While you may find it frustrating to have your quality of life "held hostage in a vain attempt..." it's apparent that you have no idea how frustrating it is for your eastern brethren to have been living under a bankrupt concessionary contract that is laden with provisions that have seriously compromised our quality of life. And I don't blame you. When this contract was ratified HP and US were separate companies, and the only folks who had an inkling of a pending merger at the time were the suits in the corporate offices of Crystal City and Tempe. I get it. And I also get that our western brethren have been working under the same contract that you ratified when you became unionized back in '94. So you guys are obviously hungry for a new agreement as well.

We have no more to give this company. After the beat down we took in BK I and II, we are looking to recoup not "choice little bits" but basic quality of life issues that center around fair compensation, vacation, scheduling and sick time. All flight attendants from the east, from the most senior to the most junior know from experience what it's like to put in the time working hard while simultaneously enjoying our lives at work and at home. There was a time here when, no matter if you were a blockholder or reserve you made a decent living. It's unconscionable that an 11 year veteran of this industry--which as you may know is the amount of time our most junior flight attendants have served--has to subsist on food stamps, or work 3 jobs, or has to live with 3 roommates just to make ends meet. Yes we were in bankruptcy, and our company was on the bubble, and although this concessionary contract was jammed down our throats with little time to examine, we did what we had to do.

But this is a different time now. You may not think that we will ever see some of the pre-2000 language in a new CBA. You may or may not be right, but one thing is for sure: If we don't fight for those contractual provisions that will enhance our standard of living we will never again see the healthy balance between life and work that speaks to the overall health and prosperity not just for the company, but also for those of us who work hard in keeping this company in motion.

We all want a new contract. We know we have to get this one right. And if getting it right means that we have to fight longer and harder than so be it. I'd rather fight a day longer and get a workable contract that I'm proud of, than settle a day sooner and get a contract that I regret. No one is being held hostage, and this is not an exercise in vanity. This is about our professional lives, and about us all working together to take a step forward.
 
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