AFA''s CHAOS, its just wrong.

Status
Not open for further replies.

FA Mikey

Veteran
Aug 19, 2002
4,421
301
miami
goldwatermiller08.com
I see the need and the value in a strike. When as a last resort you are in the position of with holding your services to the company you help build. I just dont see the valus in the CHAOS strike system. Putting a few people out to disrupt schedules. Why should a limited number be subject to retribution by the company, and the public? Why should a few lose the time and money? The company can put managers in for a number of this limited group of CHAOS makers. They can not however, cover everybody. That gives the company fewer options. As a group you stand together and say HEAR US. Its a stronger and more meaningful message standing all as one. Even to walk off for a day or two then come back for a day or two only to walk off again. Is a stronger message of solidarity and determination.
I have never been a fan of AFA, or the idea of CHAOS. Its ill-concieved and not to well thought out.
 

Transcon

Member
Aug 19, 2002
28
0
www.usaviation.com
Lets see how do I stir that pot again...

WHAT IS CHAOS(tm)?

CHAOS is a strike action that may take many forms. It may call for a mass walkout for a day or a week at a time (like a traditional strike) with no advance notice. Or, as AFA did with much success at Alaska Airlines, we may ask crews of flight attendants to walk off individual flights, at random and with no warning to management.

Management likes to say that it has 50 trained managers to take over if a flight is struck. But management doesn’t have enough people to cover a strike of every flight out of Milwaukee one day, or an unannounced strike of every flight from an outlying city to Kansas City. Truth is, management cannot predict when, where and to what degree CHAOS will strike, so it cannot defend itself against it, other than to reach a good contract with the flight attendants.

AFA developed the CHAOS -- Create Havoc Around Our System (tm) -- campaign during Alaska Airlines negotiations in 1993.


WHY CHAOS AND NOT A TRADITIONAL STRIKE?

CHAOS gives flight attendants all the leverage of a traditional strike, and more because it gives us the element of surprise. Unlike a traditional strike, Midwest Express management will not be able to predict when and where we will strike. They won't know if the strike will begin immediately after the 30-day period, after a week, or after a month.

Management won't know if we will conduct a traditional style mass strike, or strike certain flights, or certain cities.

This confusion keeps management guessing and helps prevent the company from being "ready" to defend against any single action we take.

CHAOS maximizes our impact on the company, and minimizes the risk to flight attendants. Midwest Express will have to prepare for a strike and will have to attempt to staff up enough to have employees available to cover for striking flight attendants. CHAOS also allows flight attendants to continue to work and receive a paycheck right up until the strategic strike, then return to work again.

A very important part of CHAOS is the massive public information campaign leafleting, rallying, picketing, gathering passengers' email addresses, press releases and press conferences, etc. We want to do everything we can to inform passengers of the potential for a strike, so that when they're making travel decisions, they are fully aware that their flight may be struck after Aug. 30.


HOW DOES CHAOS WORK?

CHAOS works through the element of surprise. Management won't know if we will conduct a mass walkout or intermittent targeted strikes. Management won't know if we're going to strike for a day, a week or a month. And more important, the traveling public won't know, either. he only way passengers can avoid the possibility of being stranded after August 30 is to make their travel plans accordingly. CHAOS strikes could hit Midwest Express any time after 12:01 a.m. on August 30.

CHAOS protects against the hiring of replacements. For example, roving one-day strikes at one domicile at a time would foul up the whole system, but going back after a day would guard against the hiring of replacements.

CHAOS allows flight attendants to take advantage of the unique schedules that we must adhere to. By selectively striking only on layovers, at certain cities, or on certain days when staffing is at a minimum and there is a lack of available flight attendants, even a single striker could shut down a flight in many situations.

Periodic mass strikes will drive away wary passengers, even if we come back to work after a day or a week.

Okay...all done. [;)]
 

KCFlyer

Veteran
Aug 20, 2002
10,935
1,352
www.usaviation.com
YOu forgot one thing there Transcon - CHAOS(tm) screws the passenger, who could care less about your pay and working conditions. And it's got the potential for a "lose/lose" for the AFA and company. If the screwed passenger blames it on the company, they may move their business elsewhere. If they blame it on the flight attendant, they may move their business elsewhere. An airline needs customers to stay in business. IT is better for the customer if you stage a mass walkout - at least NOTHING operates and they can try their luck with other options. But when they are "hit or miss", like CHAOS(tm), then you are screwing them without warning, and making the CUSTOMER a part of your labor problems. Not a good idea at all.
 

Rhino

Senior
Aug 20, 2002
308
0
Alaska FA's also got a friendly ruling from a northwest judge. Most legal experts believe the judge erred.

MidEx FA's who participate run a very real risk of being terminated.

Maybe you could elaborate on the legal issues involved in this 'self-help' measure?
 

Cruz32K

Member
Aug 19, 2002
17
0
www.usaviation.com
----------------
On 8/31/2002 9:11:37 AM

Alaska FA's also got a friendly ruling from a northwest judge. Most legal experts believe the judge erred.

MidEx FA's who participate run a very real risk of being terminated.

Maybe you could elaborate on the legal issues involved in this 'self-help' measure?
----------------
Yeah, like most legal experts thought OJ was innocent too. I think it's pretty well explanatory...

"...who could care less about your pay and working conditions."

Obviously "The Award Winning Flight Attendants" at Midwest Express. I for one applaud their efforts, GOD SPEED.
 

MissAAmerican

Member
Aug 20, 2002
26
0
www.usaviation.com
And this CHAOS is a GOOD thing? Especially in today's economic situation? Each and every airline needs to hang on to EVERY passenger they have. If you hurt your passengers then your contract becomes a "dead" issue when you have no company to work for anymore. Just a thought.
 

Cart Pusher

Advanced
Aug 20, 2002
146
0
----------------
On 8/31/2002 10:16:30 AM

And this CHAOS is a GOOD thing? Especially in today's economic situation? Each and every airline needs to hang on to EVERY passenger they have. If you hurt your passengers then your contract becomes a "dead" issue when you have no company to work for anymore. Just a thought.
----------------


Which is all the more reason for the company to settle. No strike is a good thing whenever it is staged - for the company or the traveling public. Ultimately it hurts the airline and there is the incentive for them to settle. I love seeing you AA people talk about how unwise and untimely this strike is. As if you haven't done it yourselves. What would you suggest these F/A's do? Work for substandard wages to keep the company afloat? Why don't you all volunteer to give AA 20% of your wages to help them through these hard times? I'm sure you'de be singing a different tune if you were affected at all.

As for CHAOS - it's an excellent idea - the company can't hire replacements because they don't know how many will walk off for how long. They don't know when and where CHAOS will strike, this causes them to spend more money trying to keep management out their flying around just in case they are needed to work a flight. The company spends money trying to keep the system moving, they lose money in passengers that will (in most cases, temporarily) fly other carriers, this should be all the incentive the company needs to settle on a reasonable contract. As for those people that participate being fired - they were at Alaska when we did it. They all go their jobs back eventually. The union just negotiates that as part of the agreement.

I say good luck to all the Midex Flight Attendants out there. Perhaps these AA people don't stand behind you but to be honest, I wouldn't stand behind any action the AA people took either, given their track record of screwing their fellow employees.
 

Rhino

Senior
Aug 20, 2002
308
0
Wasn't so long ago that USAir's FAs threatened CHAOS and W&G threatened to shut the airline down. W&G caved because the UAL merger discussions were at a critical juncture.

MidEx has 450 FAs. MidEx could terminate any chaotic FA and hire permanent replacements as part of their own 'self help.'

FAs'd be difficult to replace right now because there are no out-of-work FAs and FA training takes 2-3 years.

Better be careful.
 

Cart Pusher

Advanced
Aug 20, 2002
146
0
Unless Midex can somehow change the law, they cannot legally fire the F/A's for taking what is currently a LEGAL job action. That then means that they can't be replaced, since they weren't fired.
 

mturpiz

Member
Aug 22, 2002
57
0
www.usaviation.com
----------------
On 8/31/2002 5:06:37 PM

Unless Midex can somehow change the law, they cannot legally fire the F/A's for taking what is currently a LEGAL job action. That then means that they can't be replaced, since they weren't fired.
----------------

Actually, there is no "law" to change. The Alaska F/A were reinstated with back pay after having been fired for CHAOS because of a court judgement. That indeed sets a precedent. But....precedent does not always stand up, particularly in a different court at a different time and with potentially different circumstances. Midex and (and I'm sure have) made a point of knowing that Alaska did A, B, C and D, and the court ruled that Alaska had to rehire and pay back pay. Knowing this, Midex can instead do A, C, F and D and now it's a totally different situation in the eyes of the court. If Midex F/A are indeed fired and it goes to the courts, the ruling MAY again be in favor of the flight attendants. But it might not. A single case several years ago in a different district is hardly a sure thing even if circumstanes *are* similar.


In the past couple of days Midex has said they would lock out each F/A who engages in CHAOS and not allow them back to work until the union signs a pledge that CHAOS is over. Is that not different, at least techinically, than being fired?

And even if it IS exactly what Alaska did, I don't think anyone can guarantee that the F/A would necessarily win again in court.
 
OP
F

FA Mikey

Veteran
Aug 19, 2002
4,421
301
miami
goldwatermiller08.com
cartpusher:Which is all the more reason for the company to settle. No strike is a good thing whenever it is staged - for the company or the traveling public. Ultimately it hurts the airline and there is the incentive for them to settle.
Selfhelp is the last and final step, in trying to achieve a fair deal in negotiations with the company.
Cartpusher: I love seeing you AA people talk about how unwise and untimely this strike is.
How unwise CHAOS is. No AAer has stated getting a fair deal is unwise, or resorting to self help is a unwise decision.Its not one to be entered in to lightly.
Cartpusher: As if you haven't done it yourselves.
I have, we have. We did it in a smart way. We did it as a team and didnt risk a small group of peoples jobs.
Cartpusher: What would you suggest these F/A's do?
I suggest as I said in the first post you didn't read very well. Stand up as a group for what is right and fair, for both the employees and the company.
Cartpusher: Work for substandard wages to keep the company afloat?
Care to show from a previous post where I or anyone wrote that.
Cartpusher: Why don't you all volunteer to give AA 20% of your wages to help them through these hard times?
Why dont you.
Cartpusher: I'm sure you'de be singing a different tune if you were affected at all.
No I made the point that CHAOS is a ridiculous way to approach a strike.
Cartpusher:As for CHAOS - it's an excellent idea - the company can't hire replacements because they don't know how many will walk off for how long.
If every flight attendant walked off for 5 days. They couldnt hire a replacement either.If they walked off for 10 or even 15 days they couldn't. This way everyone puts forth and equal amount of effort, for an equal amount of gain.
Cartpusher: They don't know when and where CHAOS will strike, this causes them to spend more money trying to keep management out their flying around just in case they are needed to work a flight.
How many managers could they possibly have. How many are out flying waiting to be used. The customer doesnt know where a strike or stoppage will happen either. The passengers show up and see the flight attendants who choose to make that flight there strike. Who will the customer blame. The flight attendants or the company who wont settle.
Cartpusher: The company spends money trying to keep the system moving, they lose money in passengers that will (in most cases, temporarily) fly other carriers, this should be all the incentive the company needs to settle on a reasonable contract. As for those people that participate being fired - they were at Alaska when we did it. They all go their jobs back eventually. The union just negotiates that as part of the agreement.
How long were the Alaske F/A's out? The Alaska f/a's had to fight to get back to work.
Cartpusher:I say good luck to all the Midex Flight Attendants out there. Perhaps these AA people don't stand behind you but to be honest, I wouldn't stand behind any action the AA people took either, given their track record of screwing their fellow employees.
I am sure every AA person supports them in there fight to gain a fair deal. Can you state where or anytime APFA didnt support its members? You will stand behind us. AS in the past we will be leading the way.
 

aislehopper

Senior
Aug 20, 2002
331
9
With a little help, I found an article which discusses this very subject. One of you can read it and explain it to me
A]  [BR][BR]The article is entitled Partial Strikes under the RLA: The need for a Doctrine of Unprotected Concerted Activity.[BR][BR]Thanks Transcon for helping with the link. [BR][BR]AH
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Latest posts