Alpa Merger Seniority Integration

[767jetz]

but a 20 year PILOT should not be throwing gear for a ten year PILOT.

20 year pilot of what?...
10 year pilot of what?...

What did the 10 year AWA captain do prior to that? Maybe flew jets for another airline? A charter? Maybe large military transports?

As so many keep pointing out, there is no more USAir and there is no more AWA. There is only the New US Airways. So by some accounts you can all be considered 1st year pilots for the new company.

This idea that one guys 20 years is worth more than another guys 10 is a one sided argument. Of course 20 years with US is worth something, but in this game there is no perfect answer and years of flying is not a relevant criteria. Sure, it's not your "fault" that USAir was going out of business. It's not your fault that you were once a captain and now you're not. Conversely, it's not the AWA 10 year captain's fault that he progressed quicky at his company and did not get downgraded.

Some could even argue that had you left USAir 10 years ago and hired on with AWA, you'd be a captain today. Whose fault is it that that didn't happen?

My point is that you come to the table with what you have and go from there. Everything else is speculation on what "coulda" or "shoulda" happened in a different world.

 

[autofixer]

Unfortunantely, I see the discussions for the next ten to fifteen years in the crewroom and in the cockpit. I am over it already, been there done it, don't want to go back. Instead of North-South it will be East-West and how one company was better vs. the other. I promise you one thing. Management will use this divisive wedge to screw us in the future, you can count on it! While you are fighting the East-West war, management will have their hand in your wallet and you will not even know it.

 

[fr8tmastr]

A question for the US West guys, why are you against DOH with fences? It seems to me with the average age of a US East pilot that with a reasonable fence this should not be a problem.

This is not a flame question I would really like to know what the issue is.

By the way I dont have a dog in this fight as I am so junior I will be on the bottom no matter what integration takes place.

ALL or NONE!!!

 

[aquagreen73s]

A question for the US West guys, why are you against DOH with fences? It seems to me with the average age of a US East pilot that with a reasonable fence this should not be a problem.

This is not a flame question I would really like to know what the issue is.

By the way I dont have a dog in this fight as I am so junior I will be on the bottom no matter what integration takes place.

ALL or NONE!!!

By DOH, do you mean the actual date a pilot showed up for newhire, or a pilot's actual longevity? It makes a huge difference because if you look at just the actual date hired, then many U pilots get a windfall in that all the time on furlough suddenly counts for seniority. And that is backwards because nobody's seniority list at any airline is based on anything other than longevity. But as long as the cryptic "DOH" is thrown around without more specificity, then I'm vehemetly against it. And I'd suspect the arbitrator would be very receptive to that argument.

Given my place, it won't make much of a difference whether there is a dovetail or longevity based integration. I suspect I'd end up right around the 90-91 hires. I'm a somewhat senior f/o by the way.

 

[aquagreen73s]

I'd stay away from fences, by the way, because they just don't seem to work well for several reasons. First, it perpetuates the ill feelings from the integration. Second, it becomes an operational issue to which the company and the union have to waste energy addressing. Third, there are many other ways a lot easier than trying to keep track of midnight blue pilots versus aquagreen pilots. We need to just get this done and get over it.

I'd like to say one more thing about the integration: the focus needs to be on results, not applications. Just because a method is applied uniformly does not make it fair. Lots of ideas seem fair, but all ideas should be put to the test and judged according to the result. It's not fairness in the application we should seek but fairness in the result because it's the result we all have to live with. Applying "actual date" DOH without more may seem to be fair in its application (uniform throughout both pilot ranks) but the result would effectively be a staple. Nobody can possibly say that is the path to fairness. Now, longevity is a different issue and can easily be considered along with age, career expectations, etc.

 

[fr8tmastr]

I dont think DOH would be a windfall for US East. For example lets say the top 1000 guys in the combined list are all East guys. In 5 years they will all be retired. In ten years the majority of the East guys will be gone leaving everything to the West guys. Granted you cant have fences for that long, but to say staying in the aircraft and city you are in now is a windfall is a bit of a stretch. Does anyone really believe the senior 330 guys will give up that to run to PHX to fly the 737?

I hear many complaining about how the East guys are so senior and old that we cant have DOH. But because they are so old and senior there will be many retirements.

the other side of the argument is, do you think the 737 guy in PHX would go to the east to take the 330? the move is the same in each direction but the pay rate on the 330 is better than the 737.

Maybe when the combined list is available I will see why DOH would be so bad for the west guys, but I dont see it yet. As long as the senior West guys can stay where they are for a few years without being displaced they will have the whole system at their disposal.

 

[BoeingBoy]

For example lets say the top 1000 guys in the combined list are all East guys. In 5 years they will all be retired. In ten years the majority of the East guys will be gone leaving everything to the West guys.

That is the assumption that most people make, but it's not quite right because East's 15 years of stagnation/downsizing has jumbled the "older = senior, younger = junior" pattern that usually exists.

The initial assumption that approximately the top 1000 on a list combined by DOH would be East pilots is accurate. However, the East retirements don't all come from the senior end of the East list. Again, on a DOH merger, at the end of 5 years about 600 East pilots would be atop the combined list. After 10 years, about 300. It would take 20 years for a West pilot to reach the top - assuming he/she was hired when HP began operations (in other words, he/she would have a 42 year career).

As an aside to aquagreen, DOH and longevity are the same for those East pilots hired prior to mid-1988 since they've never been furloughed.

Jim

 

[aquagreen73s]

I dont think DOH would be a windfall for US East.

If you are speaking of straight actual date DOH, then what you say makes zero sense. You would have furloughees from a 1990 actual date DOH, but with only seven years of longevity for pay purposes, vaction, equipment bidding, etc., all of a sudden get fifteen years "credit" for integration purposes. That's more than just a windfall. It's absurd. You can't get something for nothing.

 

[twoturnin]

"Instead of North-South it will be East-West and how one company was better vs. the other. I promise you one thing. Management will use this divisive wedge to screw us in the future, you can count on it! While you are fighting the East-West war, management will have their hand in your wallet and you will not even know it." >>> Wow what a history lesson this is going to be-----the exact same thing will happen again!!!! The ALPA dog eat dog poney show---I know for a fact we( US Air MEC) were the laughing stock of entire airline industry after the PIA/USA merger. Talk about oil and water not mixing----geeez wheez----here we go again---management could not get any better XMAS presents anywhere else but from our own divided pilot group----gulp---good luck to all. Dont even bother with the KY. BOHICA. If Parker is half as sharp as I hear he is-----he's going to eat us alive again and well he should.

 

[EricLv2Fish]

US Airways needs a productive workforce. An unhappy workforce is less productive than a happy workforce. I don't think you'll see DP trying to "eat you alive".....unfortunately some of you are doing the job yourself. Get on the same page....fight for what you can reasonably get and move on. One workgroup can bring the whole company down. This shouldn't be a East vs West, Us vs Them. Get on the same page....fight for what you can reasonably get and move on for the sake of all of us please.

 

[a320av8r]

Interesting discussion on this thread. Reminds me of 2000.

Let me see if I got this straight. You're saying that you got screwed by DOH as a Piedmont pilot because your "career expectations" were greatly diminished, so now its your right to screw the AWA guys with DOH in return. Does that about cover it???

NO. I'm saying that you have NO career expectations in this industry other than a bumpy ride.
It is what it is. I'm not screwing anybody.
BUT, the precidence has been set- DOH.

 

[aquagreen73s]

NO. I'm saying that you have NO career expectations in this industry other than a bumpy ride.
It is what it is. I'm not screwing anybody.
BUT, the precidence has been set- DOH.

LIke with the Shuttle? How about PanAm National? As far as I know, the only time DOH's go down is essentially when both groups agree to it. Take MVA Air Wisconsin. Totally stupid for the Air Willie guys to agree to DOH when MVA was all but gone. But they did. National didn't. And neither will AWA. No arbitrator in the world will use DOH as the middle ground when it results in a defacto staple job and the burdened party vehemently protests. The stanard of review for an arbitrator's decision is "clearly erroneous." In light of the ALPO merger policy which favors "no windfalls," and in light of ALPO's removal of DOH language some decades ago from the merger policy, and in light of AWA's vehement protest against a DOH award, I think that would actually satisfy the clearly erroneous standard. An arbitrator who created that sort of discontent would be gone almost immediately.

 

[a320av8r]

I am a 21 year F/O (former Fk-100, A320, B737 captain) due to our latest pre-merger right-sizing.
You and I disagree but in the end will work together and must make this company succeed.
So that is why we let our respective merger committees work it out while we press on. B)

BTW, if I were on your side of the fence, I'd be pressing for relative position too.

 

[CapnCockroach]

Okay.

All of you out there that believe that the USAir pilots are the losers and have no career expectations, and thus should be mostly stapled behind the winning team of AWA pilots - stand up.

Wow! There are a lot of you!

I guess that settles it. USAir pilots to the back of the line please.

See? We don't need no stinkin' PID.

 

[RowUnderDCA]

hmmmm to a total outsider, this longevity concept seems like a decent compromise.