Recent ALPA Communications

[ClueByFour]

To prevent an ALPA decertification on both the East and West properties, an NMB representational election with a union imposed on the West pilots, and a long drawn out war between the pilot groups the simple answer is to negotiate fences.

The East MEC believes it holds a lot of leverage and if the West pilots want an integrated list and joint contract negotiations to continue, then all the West needs to do is reach an agreement with the East on fences.

1. The East MEC thinks it has leverage it does not have. See the arbitration for a perfect example of this (BTW--I told you so).

2. You cannot impose a non-ALPA union without first implementing the list. At which point, changes to the list would bring a DFW lawsuit on the new union which would prevent it from ever getting past the NMB, must less onto the property.

Stop insinuating this can (or even would) happen. It's simply not accurate.

 

[USA320Pilot]

Clue,

What I find interesting is the ALPA East MEC attorney's do not agree with your comments. How can a labor attorney be son wrong and you as a layman be so right?

Meanwhile, US Airways East pilots have a valid contract in place the company must honor until 2010, then the parties would need to negotiate a new agreement, ALPA could ask for mediation, and in the case of the AWA pilots, their last mediation took 4 years to reach a new deal.

That sounds like at least 8 years of not implementing the Nicolau Award. Meanwhile, the East pilots can get meaningful pay raises during this timeframe. For an example, a LGA-based A320 Captain could bid the B767 International postion (I believe most if not all primary blockholders can now) and obtain a $25 per hour pay raise or about $30,000 more per year during this process. That is not too bad...is it?

What would the AWA pilots get? Nothing, but stagnation and no pay increases during the Section VI process. Furthermore, without cost and revenue synergies by combining operations the company would likely have less interest in obtaining new agreements with the other unions, who could experience collateral damage during the upcoming pilot war.

Regards,

USA320Pilot

 

[N924PS]

As usual #1858, it's all about you. Sure YOU can get a meager raise bidding 76 International.

What about the rest of the pilots that will be locked in to LOA 93 pay rates until 2010? Pilots without the horsepower to bid up, like you?

Why would the West Pilots agree to any fences that would preclude them from excercising their rightful seniority per the award? Would the East Pilots extend them the same olive branch?

I think not.

 

[AAA#6]

Why would the West Pilots agree to any fences that would preclude them from excercising their rightful seniority per the award? Would the East Pilots extend them the same olive branch?

Exactly. Why should any West pilot feel the need to enter into any negotiations. AAA pilots from day one started on bad faith, which was to act like a virus and attack a viable organism for a restart on life. I have sympathy for what you went through ( I wish no career detriment on anyone ), but not Stockholm syndrom.

1. DOH
2. Fence off future POST merger widebodies.
3. E190 Award
4. B757 LOA
5. Seniority Travel

So far a lot (3) has gone AAA way. You whine about LAS redeye's that you think AWA should do. You want the Hawaii flying. You want DOH. You want the future 787/A350 slots. All because you feel that what you lost from pre-merger CH.11 is owed to you at the AWA employees (not pilot..employees)expense. Now all of a sudden you want us to work with you. Yeah Right. Why? You prove that you are backstabbers that have no real integrity to live up to an agreement. So why enter into any agreement with the EAST if you aren't willing to live up to the arbitrators ruling.
All I see from EAST is "to hell with the AWA employee." Thanks for your organism, now we can destroy another cell. You guys act just like cancer. Go ahead and do your harm on the east. I am sure Kirby and Parker can come up with a contingency. The whole industry is watching you make arses out of yourselves, while the AWA employees take the high road.

Your MEC and LEC officer didn't want to be recalled by telling you that DOH wouldn't work. They gambled and lost. Now they are going to ALPA and trying to "turn every stone" to save face. You're getting played by your own brothers. If they told you to bungee jump with extra rope....would you?

 

[Junebug172]

Clue,

What I find interesting is the ALPA East MEC attorney's do not agree with your comments. How can a labor attorney be son wrong and you as a layman be so right?

Regards,

USA320Pilot

In a briefing to your MEC, the following statement was included refering to the Nicolau award:

"We could have done worse"

Why would the West Pilots agree to any fences that would preclude them from excercising their rightful seniority per the award? Would the East Pilots extend them the same olive branch?

Exactly. Why should any West pilot feel the need to enter into any negotiations. AAA pilots from day one started on bad faith, which was to act like a virus and attack a viable organism for a restart on life. I have sympathy for what you went through ( I wish no career detriment on anyone ), but not Stockholm syndrom.

1. DOH
2. Fence off future POST merger widebodies.
3. E190 Award
4. B757 LOA
5. Seniority Travel

So far a lot (3) has gone AAA way. You whine about LAS redeye's that you think AWA should do. You want the Hawaii flying. You want DOH. You want the future 787/A350 slots. All because you feel that what you lost from pre-merger CH.11 is owed to you at the AWA employees (not pilot..employees)expense. Now all of a sudden you want us to work with you. Yeah Right. Why? You prove that you are backstabbers that have no real integrity to live up to an agreement. So why enter into any agreement with the EAST if you aren't willing to live up to the arbitrators ruling.
All I see from EAST is "to hell with the AWA employee." Thanks for your organism, now we can destroy another cell. You guys act just like cancer. Go ahead and do your harm on the east. I am sure Kirby and Parker can come up with a contingency. The whole industry is watching you make arses out of yourselves, while the AWA employees take the high road.

Your MEC and LEC officer didn't want to be recalled by telling you that DOH wouldn't work. They gambled and lost. Now they are going to ALPA and trying to "turn every stone" to save face. You're getting played by your own brothers. If they told you to bungee jump with extra rope....would you?

I thank you for one of the finest posts.

And yes, I purposefully copied the entire thing.

That sounds like at least 8 years of not implementing the Nicolau Award. Meanwhile, the East pilots can get meaningful pay raises during this timeframe. For an example, a LGA-based A320 Captain could bid the B767 International postion (I believe most if not all primary blockholders can now) and obtain a $25 per hour pay raise or about $30,000 more per year during this process. That is not too bad...is it?

Regards,

USA320Pilot

Flying FAR's!?! You'll fly FAR's!?!?

One reason we don't fly with the same cabin here for an entire 4 day is because our work rules would not allow us to keep up with the FA's because their rests are too short and days way too long.

You guys, on the other hand, would be able to stay with them.

If that's how you want to spend the next ten years - go for it. But I can promise you that your senior pilots aren't going to agree with you.

:down:

 

[ClueByFour]

Clue,

What I find interesting is the ALPA East MEC attorney's do not agree with your comments. How can a labor attorney be son wrong and you as a layman be so right?

You (and the MEC and attorney's and such) also thought you knew what the arbitrator would do. You were wrong then, and I was the first on the board to fundamentally predict the outcome.

Ergo sum, my batting average on this score exceeds you, your MEC, and your MEC's attorney's. Since you were so wrong on the arbitration itself, why do you think you are right now?

Meanwhile, US Airways East pilots have a valid contract in place the company must honor until 2010, then the parties would need to negotiate a new agreement, ALPA could ask for mediation, and in the case of the AWA pilots, their last mediation took 4 years to reach a new deal.

That sounds like at least 8 years of not implementing the Nicolau Award. Meanwhile, the East pilots can get meaningful pay raises during this timeframe. For an example, a LGA-based A320 Captain could bid the B767 International postion (I believe most if not all primary blockholders can now) and obtain a $25 per hour pay raise or about $30,000 more per year during this process. That is not too bad...is it?

What would the AWA pilots get? Nothing, but stagnation and no pay increases during the Section VI process. Furthermore, without cost and revenue synergies by combining operations the company would likely have less interest in obtaining new agreements with the other unions, who could experience collateral damage during the upcoming pilot war.

That may be true. This business about being able to force a non-ALPA union on the west is false.

Oh, and you better hope that the Hemmingway letter never comes to pass, or did you and the MEC and the vaunted attorney forget about that?

 

[luvn737s]

What would the AWA pilots get? Nothing, but stagnation and no pay increases during the Section VI process. Furthermore, without cost and revenue synergies by combining operations the company would likely have less interest in obtaining new agreements with the other unions, who could experience collateral damage during the upcoming pilot war.

Regards,

USA320Pilot

No, with the east pilots breaching their agreement, the Transition Agreement becomes null and void. The company can then open bases for west crews wherever they wish and assign west crews to flying aircraft of whatever gauge they wish. This is the last impediment the company has to full access to all synergies without having to deal with a militant east coast pilot group.

For the east to think that they would enjoy the spoils of their victory is laughable. Why would the company reward their behavior?

While rhetoric on the internet boards runs rampant, I have confidence that cooler heads will prevail and that enough people will see that moving forward under the Nicolau ruling is the only viable path.

But make no mistake, the east pilots who cannot get their temper in check are tampering with the TA at their own peril. They must see it for the firewall that it is and preserve its protections. Absent the TA, the full force of the company's unchecked abuses will rain down on them mercilessly.

 

[EastUS]

"If that's how you want to spend the next ten years - go for it."

"But I can promise you that your senior pilots aren't going to agree with you."

Guess again on the last. I'm in no danger of losing a left seat..even if this despicable "award" stands...and I'm fully in favor of not rolling over for it, whatever it takes.

I see little value in wishing for any change that disadvantages fine people that I've flown with for the best part of two decades...nor am I eager for some AWA newbie, placed above them in "seniority", to be in the right seat, that I then have to babysit.

My sentiments are hardly representative of myself alone.

Luvn737s:
"But make no mistake, the east pilots who cannot get their temper in check are tampering with the TA at their own peril. They must see it for the firewall that it is and preserve its protections. Absent the TA, the full force of the company's unchecked abuses will rain down on them mercilessly"

Ummm...Good luck with that threat. It isn't likely, or really very much possible, for things to get any worse for us as long as this company stays in business...unless we get swarmed by the obscenity of the "seniority award". If we can pull together so as to produce a thriving airline = Great, and is the best possible outcome. If it does end up shutting down..we'll live.

"While rhetoric on the internet boards runs rampant, I have confidence that cooler heads will prevail and that enough people will see that moving forward under the Nicolau ruling is the only viable path."

You guys seem utterly incapable of envisioning a group that's fully "had it" with being stomped on. We don't share your fears, nor do we anywise benefit from the Nic award. This isn't our first rodeo by a long shot, and we're fed up.

 

[767jetz]

767jetz,

Guess what? With the possibility of a United and Continental merger I have heard that the United MEC would now like DOH re-inserted inot the ALPA Merger Policy. Furthermore, there has been more than one conversation within the ALPA Exeuctive Council this week about changing ALPA Merger Policy back to DOH.

Sorry but you are wrong again. I've seen the so called "merged CAL/UAL list" by DOH and it is almost identical to a relative seniority integration. Because the 2 groups have similar longevity within their company, and bring similar assets relative to the total size of the airline to the table, it matters very little if it would be a DOH or slotting integration. Therfore, why would anyone care to change ALPA merger policy. With such an equal group there is little chance of it even getting to an arbitrator in the first place. IMO a UAL/CAL merger with the UAL name and CAL management surviving would be the "cat's meow!"

I believe, I could be srong, but I believe every other union at US Airways-America West is merging their lists DOH and every airline uses their DOH seniority to bid their equipment, bid their schedules, bid their vacation, or etc.

Another irrelevant statement. Other employee groups have far different jobs without the intricacies of our profession related to pay, advancement, etc. You know this very well, but it happens to be a convenient arguement for you right now. How transparent.

Guess what - if United and US Airways ever try to merge again guess what that will be like...

Regards,

USA320Pilot

EXACTLY! It would be hell. That is why it will never happen now that you have proven to the entire pilot community and management what little inegrity you really have. No one will touch USAir with a 10 foot pole in the future. If you think Delta pilot's resolve was strong, that was nothing compared to the resistance ane company will receive if they try to merge a bunch of malcontents like yourself with them. Mark my words!

 

[EastUS]

"No one will touch USAir with a 10 foot pole in the future. If you think Delta pilot's resolve was strong, that was nothing compared to the resistance ane company will receive if they try to merge a bunch of malcontents like yourself with them. Mark my words! "

Golly!!..Sorry for any previous doubts!!...I didn't realize that you were the CEO and the Board of UAL combined!

 

[javaboy]

 

[AAA#6]

Here are the facts about EAST.

1. Your contract consists of a cool ALPA binder with no pages.
2. Your rates are so concessionary that flying for Kalitta looks good.
3. Your work rules are right on par with Mesa.
3. Father time is working against you old guys.

So while you screw off with your threats, you waste time for your super senior $85/hr FO to get at least $100/hr and a 15% DCP. Money lost..all for arrogance and a state of denial.

So go ahead and waste your time and money. Parker could shrink this baby on the EAST and create an international division. He can always call in TPG and do something creative to kill the cancer that won't die. Parker is creative, after all HP never saw CH11 after 9/11, much less twice. He may mess up his words, but he is creative, and he will outsmart the dimwitted Mr. Stephen.

 

[luvn737s]

Can the east spell i-n-j-u-n-c-t-i-o-n? Those who threaten to shut the airline down will find their plans falling far short of their intended goal. Any union they might want to come rescue them will recognize this and stay far away. ALPA will not be willing to stick their necks out to save a small group of anarchists. So where are the radicals going to get the money to fund their ill-concieved venture?

 

[EastUS]

"So go ahead and waste your time and money. Parker could shrink this baby on the EAST and create an international division."

Anything's possible. Why would management seek to "create an international division" from more highly paid people, when one's in place?

"He can always call in TPG and do something creative to kill the cancer that won't die."

Anything's possible. It's also possible that it may seem more beneficial to expand the lesser compensated east at the expense of the west..unless you've some fantasy that you're much beloved by management, and that such couldn't possibly ever happen.

"Parker is creative, after all HP never saw CH11 after 9/11, much less twice. He may mess up his words, but he is creative, and he will outsmart the dimwitted Mr. Stephen."

You're truly a person of immense Faith..I have to admire that.

Luvn737s:

"Any union they might want to come rescue them will recognize this and stay far away."

You cannot be that simple minded. A fresh source of thousands of dues paying workers would be unattractive to any given union?

 

[Bear96]

Clue,

What I find interesting is the ALPA East MEC attorney's do not agree with your comments. How can a labor attorney be son wrong and you as a layman be so right?

Are these the same labor attorneys who have been advising the East MEC through the arbitration process so far?

Seems like either those crack attorneys do not have a good grasp of the situation, or their clients have been disregarding their advice.