ALPA Thread 12/30 to 1/6--ALL ALPA/USAPA discussed here

[CactusFlyr]

You broke the code but good look at getting the west to admit to their shameless attempt at theft.

"Theft" would imply that your group had something taken from them involuntarily. I would equate this more to a compulsive gambler- who lost, so stop with the accusations.

 

[EastUS]

Furloughed pilots don't count.

Last time I looked...they had lives, wives, kids etc... and actually seemed like not only human beings, but "fellow pilots" as well. I understand that no individual or group's nearly as important as you are though :unsure: That top management pointed out that: "Without this merger; as a three year FO..you would probably be out of a job" doesn't count for anything at all either. So much for the vaunted "job" argument. Ah well..."If pigs had wings they could fly"..and evidently some do. 😉

 

[P51Pilot]

"Theft" would imply that your group had something taken from them involuntarily. I would equate this more to a compulsive gambler- who lost, so stop with the accusations.

When forced to the table with a hapless corrupt dealer(ALPA), there isn't much voluntary to it. That is going to change though.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

Last time I looked...they had lives, wives, kids etc... and actually seemed like not only human beings, but "fellow pilots" as well. I understand that no individual or group's nearly as important as you are though :unsure: That top management pointed out that: "Without this merger; as a three year FO..you would probably be out of a job" doesn't count for anything at all either. So much for the vaunted "job" argument. Ah well..."If pigs had wings they could fly"..and evidently some do. 😉

Not only that, but some of those "furloughed pilots that don't count" were on the property 14 or 15 years before getting furloughed. They should get credit for every minute of it. No, I'm not one of 'em, but they actually sacrificed MUCH MORE than most folks that didn't get furloughed.

 

[767jetz]

The latest United MEC Chairmans video message is out on tape. It's an eye opener. They say mergers are coming and they'll be ready for and WILL protect THEIR pilots interests.

My prediction: IF and when they merge with anyone, especially after watching our situation, if their pilots are the majority in the transaction...they will call the shots regarding the seniority integration. ALPA merger policy won't occur because it will be their way in ALPA or the highway outside of it. But it WILL be there way. And I can assure you it will most likely be a staple, as in endtailing. Obviously this is my prediction...but I bet I'm right.

I disagree with your assessment. While the UA MEC will have a strong voice in any future integration, stapling (or endtailing as you put it) is not in the cards. Of course if you consider anything other than DOH as a staple job, then there is no hope of you understanding any other point of view. And convincing you otherwise would be a waste of time. As evidenced by the last attempted merger of UA and US, the UA MEC was interested in relative seniority and career expectations as per ALPA merger policy. The same position recently validated by Nicolau. It was the US MEC that insisted on DOH and took the "see you in arbitration" stance.

When the UA MEC refers to protecting the interests of United pilots, they are referring to not allowing a repeat of the East MEC's aspirations of 2000. They are also referring to not being "railroaded" by any other MEC or management team. Additionally, IF a merger were to occur with a non-ALPA airline, then there would certainly be more leverage to dictate the outcome. But stapling will still not be the order of the day.

What you will most likely see is a merger between UA and DL, or UA and CO, with a Nicolau-like solution of relative seniority, while USAirways sits on the sidelines in the throws of a civil war resolving your current integration issues.

 

[Mike]

QUOTE (CactusFlyr @ Jan 3 2008, 03:28 AM)
Furloughed pilots don't count. Jobs do.
Ahhh Yes..CactusFlyr, you stand for everything that is wrong with ALPA. Union Brother does not take care of Union Brothers. This Union is a sham, just little flying clubs with individuals working for their own gain. The most selfish org. in the world. What a joke!

 

[EastUS]

I disagree with your assessment. While the UA MEC will have a strong voice in any future integration, stapling (or endtailing as you put it) is not in the cards.

"While the UA MEC will have a strong voice in any future integration, stapling (or endtailing as you put it) is not in the cards." We naturally trust you completely 😉 No Alpoid would ever lie.....

 

[luvn737s]

If majority rules, why aren't the east pilots able to vote on whether or not to send their JNC members back to the table?

If the AAA MEC needs a change, why hasn't U-SAPs spearheaded a recall of the MEC?

If U-SAPs really has in interest in the west pilot's welfare, why haven't they flooded Phoenix with meetings and open houses in preparation for elections?

If there is such solid support of U-SAPs when contributions are voluntary, why are they broke?

These aren't the hardest questions they will face.

What color is the sky in the easties world?

 

[EastUS]

QUOTE (CactusFlyr @ Jan 3 2008, 03:28 AM)
Furloughed pilots don't count. Jobs do.
Ahhh Yes..CactusFlyr, you stand for everything that is wrong with ALPA. Union Brother does not take care of Union Brothers. This Union is a sham, just little flying clubs with individuals working for their own gain. The most selfish org. in the world. What a joke!

Pretty much. The most laughable part's their claim to being a "National" anything....more like a buncha' tribes running amok shouting "I want MINE!" without any usefull chief at the top of anything. The "National" orrofice sits festering all the while...in full knowledge that, as individuals and members of "the mother ship"...they've indeed already "Got MINE!" and are content to just seek out expansions in income and lifestyle whenever possible...only for entrenched Apoids that is of course, and without the sligtest regards to the line pilots anywhere.

The post 9-11 environment?..Wholesale pension surrenders?/etc? = The true and living word from Alpo Notional's been: "Tough luck guys/gals...we're voting ourselves huge raises, a new limo or two, and OUR pensions are just fine...Sorta' sorry 'bout 'dat though, and we'll really try to convince the utter idiots among you that we care...but/etc"..Prater: "And will you stop whining about some little seniority issues?...I've got an Alpo expensed dinner to finish, and a limo waiting to take me to my Alpo-paid-for home, and I really need to check on my investments that you morons have provided me the 100's of thousands of dollars to make from your dues"..."You think it's easy conning enough people outta' the kind of money I get?". It's purely nauseating.

 

[EastUS]

If majority rules, why aren't the east pilots able to vote on whether or not to send their JNC members back to the table?

If the AAA MEC needs a change, why hasn't U-SAPs spearheaded a recall of the MEC?

If U-SAPs really has in interest in the west pilot's welfare, why haven't they flooded Phoenix with meetings and open houses in preparation for elections?

If there is such solid support of U-SAPs when contributions are voluntary, why are they broke?

These aren't the hardest questions they will face.

What color is the sky in the easties world?

1) Ask ALpo..it's their "process" USAPA's not on line yet.
2) Why bother? Why not "recall" the entirely worthless "union"?...Umm..I meant "association"?
3) Have some patience.
4) They're not.
5) "What color is the sky in the easties world?" Ooh..trick question. Why don't you ask for a comparitive opinion after you've actually spent some serious time aloft?

 

[luvn737s]

Why don't you ask for a comparitive opinion after you've actually spent some serious time aloft?

All my time aloft is serious by comparison to how laughable the U-SAPs apologists are.

But real answers are what we need the would-be leaders of U-SAPs to supply, not laughs.

 

[767jetz]

We naturally trust you completely 😉 No Alpoid would ever lie.....

We naturally don't care what you think since you have been proven to be a flame baiter. 😉 Either way, the point is moot since a US/UA merger will not happen. Now... back to the war front... 🙄

 

[exB717Flyer]

If YOU could command the vote to be taken right now, if we ALL voted today, and if it didn't pass.... for ANY reason, what answer or what command do you have next? Forget the award for a minute. I'm just asking this question.

I just had a nap after flying a redeye so I think I'm pretty sentient -- yet I still can't comprehend most of your rambling post. You assail me for not answering your hypothetical questions which I think are moot. (If G-d can do anything, can G-d make a rock that's too heavy for G-d to lift?) I urge to prove your assertion that a new contract will never be voted-in and you respond with poll data? Not gonna work. When I say "prove" I mean PROVE!

To answer your latest question posed above, the process for renegotiating a TA after it's voted down is well-established. Since you've decided you can live with LOA93 indefinitely we've decided we can live with stagnation. Having said that, if the JNC reconvenes and is able to negotiate a solution I would be open to it. The key word is "negotiate", which implies a give-and-take and parties on equal footing. As long as you have a gun to our heads don't expect us to give in to your extortion.

Oh, and I also disagree with your assertion that a future ALPA-ALPA merger would not follow Merger Policy. Just because you guys are trying to end-run around that which you agreed to doesn't mean others will follow.

 

[end_of_alpa]

767jetz said:

I disagree with your assessment. While the UA MEC will have a strong voice in any future integration, stapling (or endtailing as you put it) is not in the cards. Of course if you consider anything other than DOH as a staple job, then there is no hope of you understanding any other point of view. And convincing you otherwise would be a waste of time.

You've convinced me. So you DIDNT waste my time. But this isn't the real issue.

As evidenced by the last attempted merger of UA and US, the UA MEC was interested in relative seniority and career expectations as per ALPA merger policy.

ALPA merger policy is a "process". Not my words, but Praters words. What one side argues before the Arbitrator and what the other argues, in the end result, is what is in the eyes of THAT arbitrator, and that arbitrator only. But this is not the real issue.

The same position recently validated by Nicolau. It was the US MEC that insisted on DOH and took the "see you in arbitration" stance.

As for the mistake of the East MEC I'll be FIRST to tell you to go to arbitration was a mistake, period. Nicolau didn't "validate" anything. He simply chose. And I'm square with that. All of what you said so far, let say, I agree with. But this is not the real issue.

When the UA MEC refers to protecting the interests of United pilots, they are referring to not allowing a repeat of the East MEC's aspirations of 2000. They are also referring to not being "railroaded" by any other MEC or management team. Additionally, IF a merger were to occur with a non-ALPA airline, then there would certainly be more leverage to dictate the outcome. But stapling will still not be the order of the day.

I might also agree with you on this statement except fot the non-ALPA part and until the very end when you said "stapling will still not be the order of the day." You should use the term "may". I will agree with you that that scenario is highly unlikely...but that is not my point. The UAL pilots have to weight the risk of arbitration with the outcome of an "award" that their majority will vote on. NO? With the way the arbitration went on here...how inclined do YOU think the "rank and file" over there are going to wish to be part of a "flip of a coin", if you will?

The real problem here, and what our MEC didn't KNOW, just for a point of order, is the arbitration LOOKS like a court in the respect you have testimony, give evidence, points of order, motions...etc. You have many of the "trappings" of a court, but an arbitration, and listen carefully here, is the difference:

Courts of Law where judges only weight both the Facts and the Law are called courts of equity (in louisiana and other states they may call them something else but the purpose is the same); in jury trials the jury is TOLD to weight the facts presented to them but the judges rule on the law. The jury VOTES and the outcome of the case is decided. This brings us up to the subject for discussion of jury nullification which is what we do... with our the vote. The Arbitrator made the choise, but the pilots vote to accept or deny the law. And that is what a CB Agreementis, isn't it? The LAW?

The arbitration board weighs the facts but only the arbitrator rules on what HE thinks the "outcome" ought to be, but its not law. NOT BECAUSE of the way he ruled in OTHER hearings. If you do not believe me, this is what he said..." that each case turns on its own facts".

Courts of law are different in that they generally rely on how other cases were decided and they then (usually) decide to rule that way or as close to that way as circumstances dictate. Its a maxim in our system generally referred to as "Stare Decisis' which is Latin meaning "to stand by that which is decided." It's the "principal" that the precedent decisions are to be followed by the courts.

This is filler for you here, though and isn't really at issue either.

What IS at issue, however, is that the jury in this case is comprised of the voters. Now YOU have to make your case for the TNA to the VOTERS!

What you will most likely see is a merger between UA and DL, or UA and CO, with a Nicolau-like solution of relative seniority, while USAirways sits on the sidelines in the throws of a civil war resolving your current integration issues.

And here you've just made my point. Will either side "trust" the arbitrator to make a decision that the majority of pilots will vote for? This is the question you should be asking. Or put another way, can you get the majority of even the combined pilots to accept AND VOTE for a TNA with the "award" in it? Can you convince the MAJORITY to vote for a contract that they are convinced is "fair" and/or "reasonable"?

So let's test this hypothesis and come back to the question just between you and I with this set of conditions:

1. A TNA is out right now. "The list" is included in the TNA. You like it for whatever reason...money, workrules, "the list", whatever. So, we'll do a simple type of "roll call" vote.

2. Your vote represents 1,622 pilots in the West and you vote YES.

Passes out west UNANIMOUSLY.

3. Your vote ALSO represents 2,844 divided by two (50%) = 1422 in the EAST.

4. My vote represents 2,844 divided by two (50%) = 1422 in the EAST. (Can't cut guys in half and make half votes so we're two pilots apart, not one in the numbers) If I vote NO, for ANY REASON, the TNA fails because you MUST have a MAJORITY of the EAST pilots. NO?

We may agree on all that is said here but in the final analysis, the vote is taken and I voted no.

5. You control a total of 3044 yes votes of the total 4466 pilots eligible to vote or 68%.

6. I control a total of 1422 no votes of the total 4466 pilots eligible to vote or 32%.

You won the popular vote but I won the "CONTROLLING" vote. NO?

How are you going to convince ME to vote YES to a TNA that has "the list" in it if I have the CONTROLLING vote?

 

[end_of_alpa]

To answer your latest question posed above, the process for renegotiating a TA after it's voted down is well-established. Since you've decided you can live with LOA93 indefinitely we've decided we can live with stagnation. Having said that, if the JNC reconvenes and is able to negotiate a solution I would be open to it. The key word is "negotiate", which implies a give-and-take and parties on equal footing.

Very good. I agree with EVERYTHING YOU SAID HERE (with less rambling than me!!!)

So, following the "well-established" process, if the JNC is able to negotiate a solution DIFFERENT than that of the Nicolau award, would you be open to it?