ALPA/USAPA Topic for week of 1/24 to 1/31

[usabusdriver]

Uh, actually, it does merge the two groups. No more East/West. One craft and/or class. NMB rules. We're now single carrier since the NMB ruled last week.

... Single operations under single certificate and NMB ruling of single carrier status last week.

End,

So then, as you have stated previously, the company may impose a single contract on the entire pilot group. Since the company believes the “Kirby proposalâ€￾ to be, in Scott’s words, an excellent proposal, and that proposal pretty much mirrors the west contract with just a few adjustments, then the company could get the idea to stem the bad press about open contracts they will impose the west contract or the Kirby proposal on the entire pilot group with the Nic award, combine the rest of the operations for the synergies, and propose negotiations to amend the contract begin in August 2008.

The company argues that the Kirby proposal is the result of joint negotiations with both pilot groups and the seniority integration was agreed to by both groups and a list submitted, and the east pilot group will garner approximately $100 million a year in pay and work rule increases. A usapa win could actually increase the opportunity for the company, as the Transition Agreement is no longer valid, (according to some), and the new union would not have the resources and organization yet to mount an effective opposition. All done, wrapped up nice and neat.

Scary thought eh? And I believe has about as much chance as the prognostication about the company renegotiating a Transition Agreement and seniority integration with usapa if they were to win a representation election.

 

[Phoenix]

as much chance as the prognostication about the company renegotiating a Transition Agreement and seniority integration with usapa if they were to win a representation election.

If USAPA is the legal CBA then who do you propose the company will negotiate a contract with?

 

[usabusdriver]

If USAPA is the legal CBA then who do you propose the company will negotiate a contract with?

Phoenix,

If usapa is the CBA then yes, the company will negotiate for a combined pilot contract with usapa appointed reps. If usapa wins a representation election would the company enter negotiations to renegotiate the Transition Agreement and the arbitrated seniority integration award with usapa? No. Would the company agree in negotiations for a combined pilot contract with usapa to ignore the Nic award for some other devised list that is not pursuant to, a legal process that invalidates the Nicolau arbitration award, or mutual agreement between the east and west pilot groups? No.

 

[end_of_alpa]

Phoenix,

If usapa is the CBA then yes, the company will negotiate for a combined pilot contract with usapa appointed reps. If usapa wins a representation election would the company enter negotiations to renegotiate the Transition Agreement and the arbitrated seniority integration award with usapa? No. Would the company agree in negotiations for a combined pilot contract with usapa to ignore the Nic award for some other devised list that is not pursuant to, a legal process that invalidates the Nicolau arbitration award, or mutual agreement between the east and west pilot groups? No.

Here we go again. What legal basis do you base your "opinion" on? I keep showing my basis in fact with case law but I get your opinions with no basis in fact.

Again, you'll find out. Card replacement count is above 2700 now. Still climbing. The vote is coming. Everyone understands how it works, at least on the East.

We have a vote. USAPA wins. USAPA negotiates a new contract with DOH as a founding principle. You sue. Well see.

OK? Everyone over HERE is tired of the rhetoric. We're voting and your suiing. That much is clear.

 

[end_of_alpa]

End,

So then, as you have stated previously, the company may impose a single contract on the entire pilot group. Since the company believes the “Kirby proposalâ€￾ to be, in Scott’s words, an excellent proposal, and that proposal pretty much mirrors the west contract with just a few adjustments, then the company could get the idea to stem the bad press about open contracts they will impose the west contract or the Kirby proposal on the entire pilot group with the Nic award, combine the rest of the operations for the synergies, and propose negotiations to amend the contract begin in August 2008.

The company argues that the Kirby proposal is the result of joint negotiations with both pilot groups and the seniority integration was agreed to by both groups and a list submitted, and the east pilot group will garner approximately $100 million a year in pay and work rule increases. A usapa win could actually increase the opportunity for the company, as the Transition Agreement is no longer valid, (according to some), and the new union would not have the resources and organization yet to mount an effective opposition. All done, wrapped up nice and neat.

Scary thought eh? And I believe has about as much chance as the prognostication about the company renegotiating a Transition Agreement and seniority integration with usapa if they were to win a representation election.

When did you get released from the asylum? You haven't kept up with the forum. Look, you guys are going to get a vote. When the judges descision comes out we'll all get a labor law education. OK? I'm ot worried about it. You'll see why.

SENIORITY MATTERS!

Let's vote.

 

[IluvLOA93]

In the representational election you will not be voting on "changing a name or the leaders." You are first and foremost voting on the legal instrument that establishes the union name and authorizes your leaders to exist---namely the constitution and bylaws.

BIMGO!


USAPA will be devoted to the US Airways pilots. Not every pilot in the world. Our agent cannot divide their loyalties and remain effective.

 

[end_of_alpa]

SENIORITY MATTERS
The first in a series that takes an honest look at seniority.



FROM WHERE DOES SENIORITY COME?

As a US Airways pilot (East or West), we use seniority in many ways, from equipment and position bidding on the permanent base bids, to vacation bidding, to days off and trip selection on our monthly bids, to trip drops and adjustments through SAP and daily AIL processing. If you ask a First Officer why his flying partner is the Captain, he'll reply, "Because he was hired first." Our seniority dictates our lives as airline pilots throughout our entire career.

So... from where does our seniority come?

Were we born with it? No.

Did we inherit it? No.

Is our seniority determined by a random method, such as alphabetically by last name, or by hair color, or birth date? NO!

Our seniority comes from our collective bargaining agreement. YES, it comes from our contract.

Let's take a look at some excerpts from Section 22 - Seniority from our collective bargaining agreement.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



SECTION 22 - SENIORITY:

GENERAL

(A) Only those pilots listed on the current US Airways, Inc. Pilots' System Seniority List shall be used on all flights as defined in Section 2(O).

(B) Pilots' System Seniority List

1. Seniority of a pilot shall be based upon the length of service as an airline pilot in the employ of the Company or its predecessor airline companies whose operations have been taken over by the Company.

2. Seniority of a pilot, and longevity for pay, vacation, sick leave, and retirement purposes shall begin to accrue on the date the pilot first reports to the Company's Pilot Training Program and shall continue to accrue except as otherwise provided in this Agreement. If more than one pilot is assigned to such training on the same day, they will be ranked in order of age, with the oldest pilot receiving the lowest seniority number. Once a seniority position is established, it shall not be changed. Each pilot shall be notified in writing of his number on this list, as well as the pilot's name and who is next junior to him

3. The Pilots' System Seniority List, as established by the Award of Arbitrator S. Kagel dated October 31, 1988, shall constitute the official Pilots' System Seniority List.

4. On January 1 of each year, the Company shall bring up to date and post within thirty (30) days a revised Pilots' System Seniority List . . . .

5. Once having established a seniority date hereunder a pilot shall not lose that date except as provided in this Agreement.

© Seniority shall govern all pilots in case of promotion and demotion, their choice of vacancies, filling of vacancies, their assignment or reassignment due to . . .

(D) In the event . . . . .

(E) Period of Probation . . . .

(F) Loss of Seniority

Any pilot whose services with the Company are permanently severed shall forfeit his seniority rights



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




We encourage all pilots to go to the USAPA website and read the entire Section 22 - Seniority

http://1.usairlinepilots.org/Working_Agree...2_Seniority.htm

So... since seniority is defined within the collective bargaining agreement that means that seniority can be negotiated. In fact, that is precisely what ALPA proposed as a solution through the Rice committee - a negotiated solution to seniority. Take another look at Section 22(B)5 above:


5. Once having established a seniority date hereunder a pilot shall not lose that date except as provided in this Agreement.


We get our seniority from our contract, not from the Company, not from ALPA and not from ALPA merger policy; until it is embodied within our collective bargaining agreement - until it is negotiated! Think about this - wouldn't the company love to take away all of our seniority, to abolish the seniority system? They can’t, because it’s in the contract. USAPA believes that seniority must be preserved in the airline industry.


USAPA was formed and has been built upon the recognition of seniority based on date of hire and length of service. These are widely recognized terms of seniority that are reasonable and have been recognized as such in courts of law. USAPA proposes to continue to define and negotiate seniority, the widely accepted and recognized seniority method of date of hire, through a collective bargaining agreement. The difference is that USAPA will be able to negotiate without the constraints of ALPA merger policy and the results of ALPA merger policy, such as the Nicolau award.


An important point to remember is that if the latest Nicolau award is embodied within the collective bargaining agreement, such as the Kagel award in Section 22 (B) 3 above, then we will live with it for the duration of the contract.


USAPA expects the NMB to set a date for a representational election in the next few weeks; the majority of the pilots at US Airways have asked for this election. USAPA asks that the pilots of US Airways stay united, and support the right of the majority to choose their next collective bargaining agent.


Look for more articles on how "Seniority Matters" soon.

 

[EastUS]

QUOTE (AAA73Pilot @ Jan 26 2008, 09:09 PM)
I'll ask again. Where is ALPA after USAPA wins the election? Who is your new bargaining agent? We are being honest. It seems we have a difference in opinions. Only you wish to characterize my opinion as being a lie. OK I can live with that. Just expect the same.

A. Isn't that what Hemenway said once before?
B. I disagree, but what a surprise that is.

It's not shill, only your interpretation. We will be a single carrier with a single bargaining unit, representing one pilot group. Interesting isn't it?""

And the Nicolau list will be our combined seniority between the two pilot groups...You just do not understand the unintended consequences you are bringing with your robust emotions. I wish you all well in the twilight years of your career.

"And the Nicolau list will be our combined seniority between the two pilot groups..." Absolutely no doubt there...sigh Faith's a powerfull thing...even when entirely misplaced.

"You just do not understand the unintended consequences you are bringing with your robust emotions." From the Book of Alpa, chapter one, verse one; Essentials of Fear Mongering: Offfer up whole vats of BS soup in abundance. Couple this with a full ounce of implied superior "knowledge". Stir untill the stench forces the entire kitchen staff from the building, then serve steaming hot.............= "You pathetic Line Pilots simply can't think for yourselves"... "Trust us..we know best" .."We'll take the very finest care of your futures"... One has to read further down for "You didn't need no steenkeeng pensions anyway!".."you also don't need no steenkeeng seniority!...."We do everything we do just for YOU though...Please keep trusting us!.. and keep that money flowing in!!" :blink:

"I wish you all well in the twilight years of your career." That's been a clearly honest, very kind, and obviously wholly heartfelt sentiment from you all along. I, for one, am deeply touched.

What ever happened to your 'Ho Ho Ho!..St Nic is coming to town"??

I do find it extremely amusing that the latest westie/Alpa spin's now offering the utter fantasy that your "St Nic" will yet come to town under USAPA....Even you must admit that that's just plain sad. That does beg a moment's pause to address a point of minor curiosity = Is it the current intent to imply that, since Alpa's attempted such a fine hose-job on the east, that it's now somehow "reasonable" to even briefly consider keeping them for their fine work?...because of some fantasized notion that said hose-job would maintain in any case?...Whew!..Words truly do fail me here 😉

"Ladies and gentlemen. We're going into the last round with Alpa on the ropes and staggering. Alpa, barely able to see at all now, blindly throws a string of weak left hooks...."

Let's VOTE!!

 

[prechilill]

Let's VOTE!!

I hope you had a nice vacation. All of us in the west missed our hero...

So what happens after a vote? Like, what happens to the transition agreement, or the AWA contract with LCC? Just curious how creative you guys can be with these questions.

 

[EastUS]

I hope you had a nice vacation. All of us in the west missed our hero...

So what happens after a vote? Like, what happens to the transition agreement, or the AWA contract with LCC? Just curious how creative you guys can be with these questions.

Thanks sir. It was a fun break.

"So what happens after a vote?" I'll reasonably hope that after the initial "Shock and Awe"/Horror/etc settles down even a tiny bit out west....We'll all start trying to rationally work out the best combined conditions we can for our collective benefit. Isn't that what any actual Union's supposed to do?

 

[Phoenix]

Phoenix,

If usapa is the CBA then yes, the company will negotiate for a combined pilot contract with usapa appointed reps. If usapa wins a representation election would the company enter negotiations to renegotiate the Transition Agreement and the arbitrated seniority integration award with usapa? No. Would the company agree in negotiations for a combined pilot contract with usapa to ignore the Nic award for some other devised list that is not pursuant to, a legal process that invalidates the Nicolau arbitration award, or mutual agreement between the east and west pilot groups? No.

Why has ALPA attempted to negotiate a fix to the Nic award? Why is ALPA currently attempting to negotiate a fix to the Nic award? With ALPA on the property, how is a vote for the next contract conducted?

If ALPA maintains that the Nic can be adjusted through negotiations, then why do they have exclusive right to do so? If USAPA is the CBA then how will a vote on the next contract be conducted?

 

[luvn737s]

Thanks sir. It was a fun break.

"So what happens after a vote?" I'll reasonably hope that after the initial "Shock and Awe"/Horror/etc settles down even a tiny bit out west....We'll all start trying to rationally work out the best combined conditions we can for our collective benefit. Isn't that what any actual Union's supposed to do?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the question also applied to what happens if U-SAPs loses. Since the west has been following prescribed rules and honoring their committments, things are pretty predictable. What is not so predictable is the behavior of the east. Care to speculate on the post-USAPA game plan if we wake up and ALPA retains it's position?

 

[EastUS]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the question also applied to what happens if U-SAPs loses. Since the west has been following prescribed rules and honoring their committments, things are pretty predictable. What is not so predictable is the behavior of the east. Care to speculate on the post-USAPA game plan if we wake up and ALPA retains it's position?

Speculate? = No. Why waste the time? Given the numbers of freshly refiled cards....what's the possible point? Can even you still assume that those cards were sent without any earnest intent of a following vote?

"What is not so predictable is the behavior of the east." That's at least an evolutionary leap forward from "You won't even get 200 cards!", and does finally acknowledge some small portion of reality, versus hard-core west/Alpa fantasy. This further substantiates my thoughts that we'll eventually be able to work together towards a better future for our combined groups.

""Ladies and gentlemen. We're going into the last round with Alpa on the ropes and staggering. Alpa, barely able to see at all now, blindly throws a string of weak left hooks...."

Let's VOTE!!

 

[luvn737s]

Why has ALPA attempted to negotiate a fix to the Nic award? Why is ALPA currently attempting to negotiate a fix to the Nic award?

There is no evidence that says anything like that is currently in progress. The west has steadfastly remained committed to preserving the Nicolau decision and the binding arbitration process. They are currently determining if there is any way to provide sufficient value in a contract to overcome the east's fear mongering without touching the arbitration decision. If the east remains as stubborn as they were throughout negotiations and the arbitration hearing, then most likely folks will go home and wait out the vote. Clear heads will look beyond Nicolau and see the greater value in working together.

Positive momentum is the death knell for USAPA.

 

[luvn737s]

Speculate? = No. Why waste the time? Given the numbers of freshly refiled cards....what's the possible point? Can even you still assume that those cards were sent without any earnest intent of a following vote?

Go ahead, I've got plenty of time.

And since the only independent voice that we've heard on the card count is from the NMB who has said there was a problem, the actual number (much like USAPAs finances and strategy for living with Nic) remains a mystery.

Remember - all we want are verifiable answers that any prospective union should be able to supply. Facts will shut us up. Rhetoric won't. 😀