Amazon Union Vote Fails by 2:1 Margin

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KCFlyer said:
I asked what to do about it. You all said thoughts and prayers and then asked me what I'd do about it.
Click to expand...
Liar, I've never said thoughts and prayers.

Solutions?

Allow concealed carry by anyone 21 and over without a permit.

Eliminate all laws that require a permit or special ID issued by states or local police in order to purchase or possess a firearm or ammunition (eg Illinois FOID).

Keep all existing background checks.

Eliminate gun-free zones in public areas that don't have armed security (eg courthouses).

Let teachers and adults carry concealed on school and college campuses.

People have spoken. They are buying firearms and ammunition in increasing numbers. Clearly it's desired.

If the bad guys can't predict where there's not going to be someone who can take them out, maybe they'll think twice.
 
eolesen said:
Liar, I've never said thoughts and prayers.

Solutions?

Allow concealed carry by anyone 21 and over without a permit.

Eliminate all laws that require a permit or special ID issued by states or local police in order to purchase or possess a firearm or ammunition (eg Illinois FOID).

Keep all existing background checks.

Eliminate gun-free zones in public areas that don't have armed security (eg courthouses).

Let teachers and adults carry concealed on school and college campuses.

People have spoken. They are buying firearms and ammunition in increasing numbers. Clearly it's desired.

If the bad guys can't predict where there's not going to be someone who can take them out, maybe they'll think twice.
Click to expand...

Okay...so you didn't give the first suggestoin. But there you go, the solution is....more guns. yee hah.

You'd love Kansas....open carry...concealed carry....no permit needed. No training either. A person can walk in...buy an AR and not even know where the bullets go. Gosh...I feel SO safe

But...let's say your vision happens. A grocery store. 50 people in the store...30 of them have their weaponry. A madman enters...shots ring out...You pull out your weapon...turn...and see 15 other people holding guns. Which one do you shoot?
 
Kansas is clearly a hotbed of mass shootings with all that reckless freedom...

Who do you shoot? Nobody unless they're a threat to you or others. And having a firearm drawn alone doesn't constitute a threat...

If they're in body armor and/or aiming and shooting at random unarmed people, it's not that hard of a choice to make, but it's still not a decision made lightly.

There's no undo button on a firearm, so anyone who has even a 30 minute safety course knows you don't shoot first and ask questions later... you assess and then aim.
 
eolesen said:
Kansas is clearly a hotbed of mass shootings with all that reckless freedom...

Who do you shoot? Nobody unless they're a threat to you or others. And having a firearm drawn alone doesn't constitute a threat...

If they're in body armor and/or aiming and shooting at random unarmed people, it's not that hard of a choice to make, but it's still not a decision made lightly.

There's no undo button on a firearm, so anyone who has even a 30 minute safety course knows you don't shoot first and ask questions later... you assess and then aim.
Click to expand...

Oh...but there IS a threat. Remember..you are in a grocery store and shots ring out...defintely a threat. You pull your gun and wheel around and see 15 people with guns. Which one is the bad guy? And do you know what a bad guy with a gun calls a guy like this?
1968883_G.jpg


My first victim.
 
KCFlyer said:
Ban assault weapons. Deeper background checks. Limit magazine capacity. Take guns from people who are mentally unstable. And then to take it a bit further....focus on the first part of the second amendment...require military service to own a gun.

There you go.. Now I ask...aside from thoughts and prayers and more guns, what might work from your side?
Click to expand...
Ban assault weapons.

"We should ban assault rifles and high-capacity magazines to stop mass shootings."

Fiction!

Between 1988 (when officials began documenting detailed information) and August 4, 2019, assault rifles were used in only 14 percent of those events.

__________________________________________________________________________

High-Capacity Magazines

Per the Heritage Foundation website, noted in The Current Gun Debate: Mass Shootings (March 2018), “Few mass public shooters have used high-capacity magazines, and there is no evidence that the lethality of such attacks would have been affected by delays of two to four seconds to switch magazines. In fact, some of the largest mass shootings in U.S. history were carried out with low-capacity weapons:



    • The Virginia Tech shooter killed 32 and injured 17 with two handguns, one of which had a 10-round magazine and the other a 15-round magazine. He simply brought 19 extra magazines.
    • Twenty-three people were killed and another 20 injured in a Killeen, Texas, cafeteria by a man with two 9mm handguns, capable of maximums of 15-round and 17-round magazines, respectively.
    • A mentally disturbed man armed with two handguns and a shotgun shot and killed 21 people in a San Ysidro McDonald’s and injured another 19. The handguns utilized 13-round and 20-round magazines, and the shotgun had a five-round capacity.
Although mass public shootings account for only 0.1 percent of the total firearm-related mortality between 2000 and 2014, they bring national attention to the issue of firearm violence. Then a familiar series of events follow: First, there is a discussion of how that particular event could have been prevented, followed by a public outcry that stricter gun laws are needed. In actuality, existing laws that, if followed, may have prevented the event in question, are often not enforced.

In March, based on Michael Siegel Claire Boine’s article entitled “What Are The Most Effective Policies In Reducing Gun Homicides?”, knee-jerk reactions rooted in emotion will not solve the problem. To date, evidence shows that the problem requires solutions that are versatile and grounded in evidence. Analysis shows no significant association between homicide rates and assault weapons bans, large-capacity ammunition magazine bans, one-gun-per-month laws, “stand your ground” laws or prohibitions on gun trafficking.

The findings suggest that laws which regulate the “what” (i.e., what guns/products are allowed) do not have much of an impact on overall population homicide. In contrast, laws that regulate the “who” (i.e., who has legal access to firearms) may have an appreciable impact on firearm homicide, especially if access is restricted specifically to those people who are at the greatest risk of violence: Namely, people who have a history of violence or represent an imminent threat of violence.

https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/resources/gun-facts-and-fiction/mass-shootings/

__________________________________________________________________________

Weapon types used in mass shootings in the United States between 1982 and April 2021, by number of weapons and incidents

https://www.statista.com/statistics/476409/mass-shootings-in-the-us-by-weapon-types-used/
_________________________________________________________________
WHAT ARE THE MOST EFFECTIVE POLICIES IN REDUCING GUN HOMICIDES?

Our analysis found three priority pieces of legislation that would have the greatest impact in reducing overall firearm homicide rates:
1. Universal background checks.
2. Prohibition of gun possession by people with a history of any violent misdemeanor, threatened violence, serious alcohol-related crime, or subject to a domestic violence restraining order. This must be accompanied by: (1) a requirement that firearms already in their possession be surrendered; (2) a procedure for confiscating guns if they are not relinquished voluntarily; and
(3) procedures for confiscating guns in situations where a person becomes prohibited from owning firearms after having passed an earlier background check.3. Extreme risk protection order laws that allow removal of firearms from an individual who, after due process, is deemed to represent a threat to themselves or others.

Understanding the Problem

In order to develop policies to reduce firearm death, we must first understand the nature of the problem. There are three main categories of firearm violence: 1. homicide (including intimate partner homicide, acquaintance homicide, stranger homicide, and mass shootings); 2. suicide; and 3. unintentional firearm deaths.

https://rockinst.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/3-28-19-Firearm-Laws-Homicide-Deaths-Brief.pdf

https://rockinst.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/3-28-19-Firearm-Laws-Homicide-Deaths-Brief.pdf
 
delldude said:
Ban assault weapons.

"We should ban assault rifles and high-capacity magazines to stop mass shootings."

Fiction!

Between 1988 (when officials began documenting detailed information) and August 4, 2019, assault rifles were used in only 14 percent of those events.

__________________________________________________________________________

High-Capacity Magazines

Per the Heritage Foundation website, noted in The Current Gun Debate: Mass Shootings (March 2018), “Few mass public shooters have used high-capacity magazines, and there is no evidence that the lethality of such attacks would have been affected by delays of two to four seconds to switch magazines. In fact, some of the largest mass shootings in U.S. history were carried out with low-capacity weapons:



    • The Virginia Tech shooter killed 32 and injured 17 with two handguns, one of which had a 10-round magazine and the other a 15-round magazine. He simply brought 19 extra magazines.
    • Twenty-three people were killed and another 20 injured in a Killeen, Texas, cafeteria by a man with two 9mm handguns, capable of maximums of 15-round and 17-round magazines, respectively.
    • A mentally disturbed man armed with two handguns and a shotgun shot and killed 21 people in a San Ysidro McDonald’s and injured another 19. The handguns utilized 13-round and 20-round magazines, and the shotgun had a five-round capacity.
Although mass public shootings account for only 0.1 percent of the total firearm-related mortality between 2000 and 2014, they bring national attention to the issue of firearm violence. Then a familiar series of events follow: First, there is a discussion of how that particular event could have been prevented, followed by a public outcry that stricter gun laws are needed. In actuality, existing laws that, if followed, may have prevented the event in question, are often not enforced.

In March, based on Michael Siegel Claire Boine’s article entitled “What Are The Most Effective Policies In Reducing Gun Homicides?”, knee-jerk reactions rooted in emotion will not solve the problem. To date, evidence shows that the problem requires solutions that are versatile and grounded in evidence. Analysis shows no significant association between homicide rates and assault weapons bans, large-capacity ammunition magazine bans, one-gun-per-month laws, “stand your ground” laws or prohibitions on gun trafficking.

The findings suggest that laws which regulate the “what” (i.e., what guns/products are allowed) do not have much of an impact on overall population homicide. In contrast, laws that regulate the “who” (i.e., who has legal access to firearms) may have an appreciable impact on firearm homicide, especially if access is restricted specifically to those people who are at the greatest risk of violence: Namely, people who have a history of violence or represent an imminent threat of violence.

https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/resources/gun-facts-and-fiction/mass-shootings/

__________________________________________________________________________

Weapon types used in mass shootings in the United States between 1982 and April 2021, by number of weapons and incidents

https://www.statista.com/statistics/476409/mass-shootings-in-the-us-by-weapon-types-used/
_________________________________________________________________
WHAT ARE THE MOST EFFECTIVE POLICIES IN REDUCING GUN HOMICIDES?

Our analysis found three priority pieces of legislation that would have the greatest impact in reducing overall firearm homicide rates:
1. Universal background checks.
2. Prohibition of gun possession by people with a history of any violent misdemeanor, threatened violence, serious alcohol-related crime, or subject to a domestic violence restraining order. This must be accompanied by: (1) a requirement that firearms already in their possession be surrendered; (2) a procedure for confiscating guns if they are not relinquished voluntarily; and
(3) procedures for confiscating guns in situations where a person becomes prohibited from owning firearms after having passed an earlier background check.3. Extreme risk protection order laws that allow removal of firearms from an individual who, after due process, is deemed to represent a threat to themselves or others.

Understanding the Problem

In order to develop policies to reduce firearm death, we must first understand the nature of the problem. There are three main categories of firearm violence: 1. homicide (including intimate partner homicide, acquaintance homicide, stranger homicide, and mass shootings); 2. suicide; and 3. unintentional firearm deaths.

https://rockinst.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/3-28-19-Firearm-Laws-Homicide-Deaths-Brief.pdf

https://rockinst.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/3-28-19-Firearm-Laws-Homicide-Deaths-Brief.pdf
Click to expand...
Yet another long article disputing my suggestions, but no suggestion on what could be done about it. And if you don't think people dying while at school or shopping or on dates is a problem, I don't know what to think. I've taken heat for the "thoughts and prayers" suggestion so out of respect for my right leaning friends, I will limit the only solution I see from you all to "more guns".
 
KCFlyer said:
Oh...but there IS a threat. Remember..you are in a grocery store and shots ring out...defintely a threat. You pull your gun and wheel around and see 15 people with guns. Which one is the bad guy? And do you know what a bad guy with a gun calls a guy like this?

My first victim.
Click to expand...

Go take a CCW class and let us know how your "opinion" changes on that asininely stupid statement.

Better yet... I can easily show you where CCW's stopped events underway. Maybe you can find some data to back up your assertion that CCW holders in a situation like only make it more dangerous. Data matters, not opinions or conjecture.

Tulsa mass shooting stopped by CCW: https://www.audacy.com/newsradiowrv...rry-holder-kills-attacker-stops-mass-shooting

Portland mall shooting ends because CCW aims at Shooter: https://www.kgw.com/video/news/clackamas-mall-shooter-faced-man-with-concealed-weapon/283-606213

Here's a compilation: https://www.foxnews.com/us/texas-ch...e-a-good-guy-with-gun-takes-down-mass-shooter
 
Last edited:
KCFlyer said:
Yet another long article disputing my suggestions, but no suggestion on what could be done about it. And if you don't think people dying while at school or shopping or on dates is a problem, I don't know what to think. I've taken heat for the "thoughts and prayers" suggestion so out of respect for my right leaning friends, I will limit the only solution I see from you all to "more guns".
Click to expand...
Pretty cut and dried. Try reading the provided information.

Sorry to blow your assault weapons and high capacity magazine mantra with facts.

Our analysis found three priority pieces of legislation that would have the greatest impact in reducing overall firearm homicide rates:
1. Universal background checks.
2. Prohibition of gun possession by people with a history of any violent misdemeanor, threatened violence, serious alcohol-related crime, or subject to a domestic violence restraining order. This must be accompanied by: (1) a requirement that firearms already in their possession be surrendered; (2) a procedure for confiscating guns if they are not relinquished voluntarily; and
(3) procedures for confiscating guns in situations where a person becomes prohibited from owning firearms after having passed an earlier background check.3. Extreme risk protection order laws that allow removal of firearms from an individual who, after due process, is deemed to represent a threat to themselves or others.
 
eolesen said:
Go take a CCW class and let us know how your "opinion" changes on that asininely stupid statement.

Better yet... I can easily show you where CCW's stopped events underway. Maybe you can find some data to back up your assertion that CCW holders in a situation like only make it more dangerous. Data matters, not opinions or conjecture.

Tulsa mass shooting stopped by CCW: https://www.audacy.com/newsradiowrv...rry-holder-kills-attacker-stops-mass-shooting

Portland mall shooting ends because CCW aims at Shooter: https://www.kgw.com/video/news/clackamas-mall-shooter-faced-man-with-concealed-weapon/283-606213

Here's a compilation: https://www.foxnews.com/us/texas-ch...e-a-good-guy-with-gun-takes-down-mass-shooter
Click to expand...

YOu don't have to have a CCW class in Kansas or Missouri. Just buy a gun and hope for the best. But the gun nuts who propose more guns as a solution devised something they call "constitutional carry". Carry what you want, when you want and where you want...WITHOUT any training.

And for all those CCW folks who stopped a threat...if EVERYBODY has a gun (more guns = more safety), how many people will be able to tell who the bad guy is? You all make it sound SO easy. It's not.
 
delldude said:
Pretty cut and dried. Try reading the provided information.

Sorry to blow your assault weapons and high capacity magazine mantra with facts.

Our analysis found three priority pieces of legislation that would have the greatest impact in reducing overall firearm homicide rates:
1. Universal background checks.
2. Prohibition of gun possession by people with a history of any violent misdemeanor, threatened violence, serious alcohol-related crime, or subject to a domestic violence restraining order. This must be accompanied by: (1) a requirement that firearms already in their possession be surrendered; (2) a procedure for confiscating guns if they are not relinquished voluntarily; and
(3) procedures for confiscating guns in situations where a person becomes prohibited from owning firearms after having passed an earlier background check.3. Extreme risk protection order laws that allow removal of firearms from an individual who, after due process, is deemed to represent a threat to themselves or others.
Click to expand...

AS I said....you have done a tremendous job of refuting my statements. But I asked you what would help address the problem of mass shootings. You STILL haven't answered that.
 
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