American to lease A319s and A321s

[Deleted member 14439]

It was not too long ago that we ,AA, were going to an all Boeing fleet. A part of the rationale was lower costs in parts, training etc. Now we are going in a completely opposite direction. While I understand some of the thinking and need, it just seems a bit "off" to me and many of my coworkers. However I`m sure sometime down the road we will hear how our costs are too high and the employees, once again, will need to subsidize yet another poor decision. But hey what do I know...#justsayin`

 

[lpbrian]

What parts do 737 and 777's have in common? A 737 is just as different from a 777 parts/training standpoint, as an A320. Or 757 or 767 or 787.

 

[Deleted member 14439]

Point taken. I`m wondering about costs related to training on a different manufactures' aircraft. There is a lot of similarity in 757/767/77. True the 737 is quite different from those 3. Now we`ll be learning the 319/320/321 and eventually the US equipment. Oh well all that is way above my pay grade. My main concern these days is relieving the twu of the burden of "representing" the AMT at AA. GO AMFA @ AA!!!

 

[USFlyer]

Assuming the merger goes through, you were going to have A LOT of Airbus equipment anyway, given US has been working towards an all Airbus fleet since the late 90s. US is relatively close to that goal given the 767s and 734s all have end of service dates.

So, at this point, you'll have enough economies of scale with the fleets that are part of the long term fleet plan that the extra cost really will be negligible. What you want to avoid is a fleet composed of 40 of this type, 30 of that type, 50 of another type, etc.

 

[Deleted member 14439]

One thing for sure. Our combined fleet will be as diverse as the folks working here. GO AMFA @ AA!!!

 

[robbedagain]

dont forget we still have the 75s but i do not know if they have a service end date yet?

 

[USFlyer]

I left the 757s off the list since AA has 102 of them, so US's relatively small fleet of 757s will just add to the already large fleet of AA 757s. Also, many airline CEOs have spoken about the 757 replacement problem, as the only options really are smaller 739s/321s (which don't have the same range) or widebodies (which have higher costs). In some sense, I wish Boeing had decided to update the 757 (e.g., a 757 MAX) so there was a more conveninent replacement.

 

[Kev3188]

One thing for sure. Our combined fleet will be as diverse as the folks working here. GO AMFA @ AA!!!

You should see what all we have at DL!

 

[USFlyer]

You should see what all we have at DL!

But, DL is getting many of those planes "on the cheap" by sucking up models (e.g., MD-90s, B717s) from other airlines that had small fleets of those models. I'm assuming DL has decided that the lower purchase/lease costs offset the increase in training/maintenance costs. DL also seems to have embraced the NW model, to a degree, of getting every last cycle out of its airframes.

 

[robbedagain]

thanks usflyer i forgot that there is no 75 replacement my bad

 

[Kev3188]

But, DL is getting many of those planes "on the cheap" by sucking up models (e.g., MD-90s, B717s) from other airlines that had small fleets of those models. I'm assuming DL has decided that the lower purchase/lease costs offset the increase in training/maintenance costs. DL also seems to have embraced the NW model, to a degree, of getting every last cycle out of its airframes.

No argument here. I'm just noting that we've gotta be the industry leader in fleet (and sub fleet) types.

 

[WorldTraveler]

there was an article recently on www.justplanenews.com that indicated all the orders will continue whthr or not it actually happens remains to be seen

mostly because neither A or B are going to allow the combined AA/US to walk away from significant orders... they could swap one model for another, but the total value of the order is going to be the same regardless of the manufacturer.

Having multiple different fleets are becoming more attractive considering MBV's , tooling, and facilities are no longer needed.
Virtual Airlines - all planes and no employees. It's their goal.

fleet commonality might be ideal if you were starting an airline from a clean sheet of paper but the mergers that have swept the legacy carriers make it impossible to come up w/ a single fleet type for every kind of mission.
But it also doesn't really matter in terms of costs if all 3 network carriers have the same "uncommonality" (complexity) in their fleets.

WN made the decision to retain its unique 737 fleet but I don't know of any large int'l carrier that has aircraft of one family from one manufacturer.
The costs of acquisition are much higher for int'l aircraft and there is an advantage in being able to force both A and B to fight for the business; an airline that decides to retain a common fleet sends a signal to their "preferred" supplier that they are willing to pay a higher price... why would a supplier offer the lowest price if the airline isn't really willing to buy from the other maker?

But, DL is getting many of those planes "on the cheap" by sucking up models (e.g., MD-90s, B717s) from other airlines that had small fleets of those models. I'm assuming DL has decided that the lower purchase/lease costs offset the increase in training/maintenance costs. DL also seems to have embraced the NW model, to a degree, of getting every last cycle out of its airframes.

DL is able to keep aircraft longer and still be profitable because it is attacking the two major components of older aircraft - fuel and maintenance.
The refinery deal is pushing jet fuel prices down - and is also helping other carriers in the process but because DL is focusing its fuel supply efforts in regions where it can most benefit, it stands to gain the most.
As for maintenance, DL is still retiring older A and B aircraft when other carriers are based on cycles, not age- but DL's older aircraft strategy is focused on the DC9 family of aircraft which are very durable - and which no one else seems to want. While the DC9 derivatives have far been surpassed by A and B products in terms of performance and range, the M90 and 717 fill many markets where those aircraft can operate and still maintain A and B fleets to do the longer haul domestic routes.
DL also has other carriers subsidize the complexity of DL's own fleet by gaining maintenance capabilities because of its fleet diversity which it then uses to sell services to other airlines.

DL pilot rumors are that a top-up order for the new gen 330 and current gen 321 are close to being announced; Airbus has been marketing the enhanced 330 as a cost effective alternative to the 787 which is about the same size. While the 787 may have lower operating costs if ownership is not considered, few people outside of finance depts. appreciate how much of a difference $1B in extra debt makes on a balance sheet and the difference in acquisition price just for the 10 330s and the 30 321s could easily exceed $1B when compared to the 787 and reengined 320 or 737 family aircraft.

A DL order would also send a strong signal to Boeing since DL hasn't ordered a new build Airbus product since the 310s post Pan Am.

Combined with the 717 and M90 deals (both of which offer current generation comparable fuel burn), DL's strategy is to keep debt levels far lower than AA and UA; part of AS and WN's success has been much healthier balance sheets than the network/legacy carriers. DL clearly wants to move in the AS/WN direction.

I fully suspect that AA/US will have to slow some of their fleet replacement down the road if for no other reason than that the extra pension obligations which weren't expected when AA went into BK will become a significant drain on AA's finances.

 

[robbedagain]

WT my bro read somewhere the other day that DL is close to ordering the airbus and boeing 787 aircraft i think was about 18 787s
i do think that most of the aircraft orders for US are realistically replacement planes as the 734s and the 76s are both going to be gone within a couple yrs time i think the 321s are the 734s replacement and the 330s are the 76 replacements
now combine the 2 airlines i think the orders that AA has are a mix of replacement and opening new markets if im wrong on that then im wrong but i do think even after they retire the md 80s and their older 76s and 57s i do think they still would have more aircraft

 

[WorldTraveler]

NW ordered 18 787s and was supposed to be the launch N. America customer for the 787 and should have received them years ago. DL deferred the 787s to well after 2020 in part because DL said several years ago that the economics of the 787 -8 are not good enough based on the high purchase price - and NW undoubtedly got very good pricing. But new technologies aren't cheap and they also are problematic and the 787 has been very problematic.

DL's CEO has said they don't intend to take the 787 for now and also will be interested in the 787-9 or larger when they do. He's said the same thing about the 737MAX and 320NEO.

Of course until the order is announced by DL, it is still speculation but Boeing really doesn't have a low acquisition cost aircraft that can fly 13-14 hour flights which is the primary purpose DL is trying to meet w/ this order.

You are right that AA and US will use a lot of the aircraft for replacements and there will likely be some growth but the US legacy carriers are smaller now than they were several years ago. DL has been very aggressive in pulling capacity out of its system to force up fares and increase its profitability; UA has been very slow post merger to do this and their financial reports show the result. AA/US will have a very hard time improving the finances of the combined company without pulling capacity out of the system which will mean that there will be a lot less growth than mgmt. has talked about and labor has expected. Remember that WN pushed that it would grow and yet WN is also shrinking. It is now well accepted that pulling capacity is a very accepted way to push profits out by pulling capacity out of the system. AA/US will have no choice but to pull capacity in part because new AA's costs will be higher than they are now as a result of the pay raises that are being passed out and there are routes that will not be viable based on higher costs. Further, there are duplications between AA and US' route systems such as between DFW and PHX; pulling capacity will help push up fares and increase profitability and AA/US will still be the number one airline in the southwest US.

 

[1AA]

What parts do 737 and 777's have in common? A 737 is just as different from a 777 parts/training standpoint, as an A320. Or 757 or 767 or 787.

How about the maintenance manual or the wiring manuals. Boeing and Airbus manuals are two worlds apart.