APA Board Censures the Top Dogs

[Hopeful]

There's that binary logic again -- it didn't work for you, therefore it didn't work for anyone but management...

You said it, I didn't.

Let me give you my case as a mechanic. With the 2003 concessionary package, I lost $20,000 dollars a year for six years. In return the company gave me 449 shares of stock optioned at $5. The stock would have to hit $267 a share for me to get it back. It topped out at $40 a share where even if I sold it at that price, would not have even received one year's pay cut back. That's not counting paying them back the $5.

No I ask you....Did the executives get back what they gave up and then some?

 

[eolesen]

I could really care less what management "got back", Hopeful. Those guys could work for nothing and you'd still complain, and you'd still never get your 2002 pay restored.

The fact is, management wasn't the only one to benefit from Turnaround. I showed you two other groups who benefitted.

And while you can whine about the pay cuts, fact also remains y'all kept your pensions, your health-care, and yes, your paychecks. You're too damn stubborn to recognize the cost of that. Maybe it isn't $20K per year, but it ain't chicken feed either.

With unemployment on the rise, perhaps you should count your blessings and quit pissing and moaning so much. There are a lot of guys who used to work for UAL, ALK, DAL, US, and NWA, and would love nothing more to be collecting a paycheck under the so-called crappy working conditions you find so deplorable.

 

[Hackman]

There's that binary logic again -- it didn't work for you, therefore it didn't work for anyone but management...

The reality is that it worked out quite well for shareholders, especially those who took a chance and bought shares in the single digits and sold them in the 30's. That would include a fair number of employees, or at least those who were smart enough not to flip their shares the day they vested each tranche. Don't believe it? The PUP plan is living proof --- had the share values *not* held up or outperformed others, there would have been no payouts.

Turnaround also worked out quite well for creditors and suppliers. Most took a reduction in price or interest rates back in 2003, but saw that as a temporary setback paid off by being able to retain contracts which would have otherwise seen a larger reduction or even cancellation in bankruptcy court.

I'll be the first to agree with you that Shared Sacrifice didn't hold up over time, but the other tenets of the plan did work both ways. Like it or not, reducing the cost structure of the airline allowed a lot of jobs to be retained. I'm not so sure that AA would have fared the storm of Summer 2008 fuel prices quite so well with their 2002 cost structure.

Your failed Wall Street reparte' of unlimited greed is good business, no matter what the cost to others lives, or how many outright lies must be told, just as long as the deception keeps that $$CASH$$ flowing in at the top is typical. Looks like that ship is sailing on some very rough water at this point in time. A heavy price is being paid (mostly by taxpayers) for the failures and greed of many crooked MBA types, I damn sure wouldn't want to be running AIG right now. It seems like more and more Harvard MBA golden boys are being turned into Bubba's new trophy wife.

AMR shareholders that bought shares at the low selling price did do well, thanks to the employees that were sold a line of crap about Shared Sacrifice and Pull Together Win Together. The pittance of shares employees got was a joke. Your right S.S. didn't hold up over time, or from the start. AMR outperformed the bankrupt legacy carriers because it's UNION employees prevented bAAnkruptcy!!!! We had to pay for the MANAGEMENT idiocy of More Room Throughout Coach and the unwarranted major purchase of TWA LLC. Now, if you think barely "outperforming" bankrupt carriers is something to crow about, then you have more that a few screws loose sir. I think outperforming Southwest would be something to shout about, but AA would have to treat it's employees fairly to perform that well, and we can all forget about that ever happening at any AMR company.

I wonder what drives Southwest to be so successful and have a fairly good relations with all the union employees they have? (SWA union workers just got nice contracts recently, impossible at AMR) With your hatred of any union worker Eric, that SWA success story with its unions has to be confusing for you.

 

[eolesen]

It's not confusing at all that WN got decent contracts. They have a history of working *with* management as opposed to *against* management. And that has been rewarded over time by both sides.

But make no mistake, SWA's relationship with the unions has cooled considerably over the past five years. The pilot contract they just signed with guaranteed growth & number of aircraft is going to be very difficult to deliver if the recession continues. They're reaching a point of saturation, and their workforce ain't getting any younger.

 

[Hackman]

It's not confusing at all that WN got decent contracts. They have a history of working *with* management as opposed to *against* management. And that has been rewarded over time by both sides.

But make no mistake, SWA's relationship with the unions has cooled considerably over the past five years. The pilot contract they just signed with guaranteed growth & number of aircraft is going to be very difficult to deliver if the recession continues. They're reaching a point of saturation, and their workforce ain't getting any younger.

The unions have a history of working with management because Herb treated employees as part of the team, and not like a liability that should be deceived and groin kicked at every opportunity. The SWA employees know when the company does well, so will they. A simple concept that AMR executives don't seem to grasp.

The SWA relationship might have cooled somewhat, but thay are still an example that unions and management can work if respect is given by both sides. With AMR management and it's history of lies and underhanded tactics, nothing has changed since Arpey took the helm from Carty, as everyone knew it wouldn't.

When a sports team fails to win, they don't fire all the players, they fire the coach. It's time for a new coach at AMR.

 

[FrequentFlierCA]

With unemployment on the rise, perhaps you should count your blessings and quit pissing and moaning so much. There are a lot of guys who used to work for UAL, ALK, DAL, US, and NWA, and would love nothing more to be collecting a paycheck under the so-called crappy working conditions you find so deplorable.

Could not agree more with this sentiment. There are plenty of things I don't like about my current position, but I am grateful to have a job to go to every day (and a paycheck every two weeks) when I see so many friends and business contacts losing their livelihoods each month.

It's a good thing you have your union to protect you. If my boss heard me talking the sh*t some of you do about AA, I'd be fired before I finished the sentence. If you think you can do better elsewhere, I wish you the best of luck.

 

[AAmilesman]

FFCa, you're exactly right. What other businesses can ran the rank and file rail against management the way unions shops do? I'll tell you: none. Could you imagine if the masses at Microsoft started bellyaching that the company is the not quite the juggernaut it used to be and that they're not getting rich like their predecessors? They'd all be fired with extreme prejudice.

 

[eolesen]

FFCa, you're exactly right. What other businesses can ran the rank and file rail against management the way unions shops do? I'll tell you: none. Could you imagine if the masses at Microsoft started bellyaching that the company is the not quite the juggernaut it used to be and that they're not getting rich like their predecessors? They'd all be fired with extreme prejudice.

What happens when someone speaks out about their union. Aren't they treated with the same extreme prejudice you accuse management of?....

 

[FrequentFlierCA]

I didn't get the read that aamilesman was accusing management of extreme prejudice, rather he or she was making the point that in any non-unionized context, popping off about the bosses (billboards, adverts, et al.) would lead to termination. So the union structure effectively protects employees to go out and sow discord between the workers and the managers, whereas in other contexts they would simply be fired.

 

[TWU informer]

What happens when someone speaks out about their union. Aren't they treated with the same extreme prejudice you accuse management of?....

I feel compelled to answer this one.

As someone who has spoken out against the TWU on regular basis, I can vouch that extreme prejudice does indeed come to those who oppose the TWU.

Kangaroo Courts with 3 years of bad standing, 5 years precluded from running for union office, and I know of two off hand that were removed from their elected office in NY.

Even today, those who speak out are black balled from any leadership team positions in the so-called working together program.

 

[eolesen]

in any non-unionized context, popping off about the bosses (billboards, adverts, et al.) would lead to termination

I'm sure it happened in Upton Sinclair's day and age. Not quite as convinced today.

IIRC, there were non-union folks behind the Pupoff.com website (they let the domain name expire for some reason...), and there were also a few management signatures on the list. You still have somewhat activist groups in both DFW and MIA who pretend to act like a union and speak out against the company. Those folks haven't been fired, either.

Even Walmart workers have been known to picket their own stores in protest without retribution. If there was a corporation I'd expect to act out, it's WMT.