APA Signs accord.

[eolesen]

My seniority means asolutely nothing with any other group.

With union seniority, you're right, but AA employees have four relevant dates which could be used for leveling: hire date, company seniority, union seniority (called "employment seniority" for non-union workgroups) and class seniority dates.

With the pilots, it's not uncommon to have a FO/FB who is senior to the Captain. It opens another can of worms with mergers. As an FO, I voluntarily go behind the Captain, even if he's junior to me on the list (TWA)

You're focusing on union seniority. Under company seniority, he'd still be ahead of you, since I believe TW, QQ, OC and EA employees were given pre-merger DOH as their company seniority date.

AA is one of the few carriers who still subscribes to first-listed-first-accommodated within a classification. Just about everyone else uses company seniority as the leveling factor.

 

[Skymess]

Art,
Are you versed in the (cough, rumored) recent firing(s) of 2 MIA based F/A's and the events and circumstances that led to the firing(s)? It all began with a deadhead from what I understand.

Which leads me again to question why the APFA chose to run the cabin jumpseat up the flagpole, and not the deadhead priority?

I have no problem with pilots jumpseating on an empty FA cabin jumpseat. I can see there may be some problems with some stupid pilots and some stupid FA's. I had a FA yell at me last month while trying to jumpseat. No joke, here was the conversation.
Me: Hi my name is chris and I will be jumpseating.

Working FA: Oh great, I have to share my F'ing jumpseat with you. It's not F'ing small enough right? Can't you catch the next flight? Do you really have to F'ing be on this one?
Makes you sad that ANYONE has to deal with that kind of attitude whether working, jumpseating, or a passenger on her flight. And she was an equal opportunity b*tch.

Maybe someone needs to make a trip book entry on jumpseat etiquette to be followed by the jumpseater and the working crew.

I do have a large problem with priority deadheading for pilots. I have no problem with first come first serve boarding for deadhead. If you want to get on the list for first before everyone than haul your butt to the airport before them. If the whole crew deadheads together and arrives at the same time then the priority should go by position number. Captain to the highest number crewmember.

I too wonder why THB is throwing up the smokescreen about the jumpseat. Makes me scared to think about what else may be in the works.

 

[AAviator]

Fellow Pilots,

Last Thursday, APA submitted a proposal to management to grant a contract exception in support of DFW-Beijing service. One of the items the APA Board of Directors considers essential for any new long-haul agreement is a provision granting AA pilots the ability to use the cabin jumpseat for personal travel when no other seat is available on the aircraft and after any non-rev AA flight attendants have been accommodated. Some flight attendants have expressed concerns or objections about our proposal based largely on the belief that APFA controls the disposition of an empty cabin jumpseat, or possibly because they believe pilots may encroach upon a right that they bargained for and value highly.

First, I would like to emphasize that APA respects the contractual rights of other AA labor groups, and we do not seek conflict on this issue. We understand that some flight attendants may have questions about APA’s effort to obtain cabin jumpseat rights for pilots. Please be respectful of their concerns and assure them that we are only asking for access after all non-rev AA flight attendants have been accommodated. Under APA’s proposal, non-rev flight attendants would still have priority for the cabin jumpseat. Nothing in this proposal impairs a flight attendant’s ability to use the cabin jumpseat for non-rev travel.

In a hotline to the flight attendants this weekend, APFA President Tommie Hutto-Blake asserted that flight attendants “own” the cabin jumpseat and therefore APFA must be consulted on the use of an otherwise empty cabin jumpseat (click here to read). When APA first investigated the subject of cabin jumpseat access several months ago, Ms. Hutto-Blake made clear that APFA was only willing to discuss the issue based upon the premise that APFA has the authority to grant or deny access to the cabin jumpseat. That position is not supported by any known agreement. While APA is always open to dialogue with other employee groups on topics of mutual concern, we cannot in good conscience accept claims of contractual ownership where none exist.

APFA’s contract does grant AA flight attendants the ability to use an unoccupied cabin jumpseat for non-rev use, but it does not grant exclusive use of or the bargaining authority for these seats (click here to read). On previous occasions, AA Employee Relations representatives have stated that only management has the authority to grant cabin jumpseat access. I have taken the additional step of requesting AA Vice President – Employee Relations Mark Burdette to confirm this position in writing (click here to read).

Ms. Hutto-Blake also cites an AA Flight Attendant Manual prohibition on the use of cabin jumpseats by pilots. The pilots’ Flight Manual Part I contains similar language in Section 4, paragraph 3.7. As most of you know, however, company flight manuals articulate company policies and do not represent contractual agreements with employees. APA has never let internal company policies limit the issues on which we choose to bargain.

APA believes that pilot access to the cabin jumpseat is a clear no-cost benefit that should be provided immediately regardless of any other ongoing negotiations. Flights are fuller than ever, and leaving employees standing at the gate when there is an empty seat that could be used makes no sense. Furthermore, opening the cabin jumpseat to non-rev pilots provides incremental benefits to all employees – flight attendants included. When a D-2 pilot is able to occupy the cabin jumpseat, one more seat potentially becomes available for another non-rev passenger (employees, family, D-3 companions, etc.). Six of nine major airlines currently allow cabin jumpseat use by pilots.

Again, we respect the flight attendants' contract and APFA’s obligation to represent their members. We appreciate the effort it took APFA to secure the cabin jumpseat for their members nearly 30 years ago. APA is now engaging in a similar battle on behalf of our members. APA’s proposal does not diminish any flight attendant contractual right, and it just makes sense to put an otherwise empty seat to use.

In Unity,

 

[ArtTang]

Fellow Pilots,

Last Thursday, APA submitted a proposal to management to grant a contract exception in support of DFW-Beijing service. One of the items the APA Board of Directors considers essential for any new long-haul agreement is a provision granting AA pilots the ability to use the cabin jumpseat for personal travel when no other seat is available on the aircraft and after any non-rev AA flight attendants have been accommodated. Some flight attendants have expressed concerns or objections about our proposal based largely on the belief that APFA controls the disposition of an empty cabin jumpseat, or possibly because they believe pilots may encroach upon a right that they bargained for and value highly.

First, I would like to emphasize that APA respects the contractual rights of other AA labor groups, and we do not seek conflict on this issue. We understand that some flight attendants may have questions about APA’s effort to obtain cabin jumpseat rights for pilots. Please be respectful of their concerns and assure them that we are only asking for access after all non-rev AA flight attendants have been accommodated. Under APA’s proposal, non-rev flight attendants would still have priority for the cabin jumpseat. Nothing in this proposal impairs a flight attendant’s ability to use the cabin jumpseat for non-rev travel.

In a hotline to the flight attendants this weekend, APFA President Tommie Hutto-Blake asserted that flight attendants “own†the cabin jumpseat and therefore APFA must be consulted on the use of an otherwise empty cabin jumpseat (click here to read). When APA first investigated the subject of cabin jumpseat access several months ago, Ms. Hutto-Blake made clear that APFA was only willing to discuss the issue based upon the premise that APFA has the authority to grant or deny access to the cabin jumpseat. That position is not supported by any known agreement. While APA is always open to dialogue with other employee groups on topics of mutual concern, we cannot in good conscience accept claims of contractual ownership where none exist.

APFA’s contract does grant AA flight attendants the ability to use an unoccupied cabin jumpseat for non-rev use, but it does not grant exclusive use of or the bargaining authority for these seats (click here to read). On previous occasions, AA Employee Relations representatives have stated that only management has the authority to grant cabin jumpseat access. I have taken the additional step of requesting AA Vice President – Employee Relations Mark Burdette to confirm this position in writing (click here to read).

Ms. Hutto-Blake also cites an AA Flight Attendant Manual prohibition on the use of cabin jumpseats by pilots. The pilots’ Flight Manual Part I contains similar language in Section 4, paragraph 3.7. As most of you know, however, company flight manuals articulate company policies and do not represent contractual agreements with employees. APA has never let internal company policies limit the issues on which we choose to bargain.

APA believes that pilot access to the cabin jumpseat is a clear no-cost benefit that should be provided immediately regardless of any other ongoing negotiations. Flights are fuller than ever, and leaving employees standing at the gate when there is an empty seat that could be used makes no sense. Furthermore, opening the cabin jumpseat to non-rev pilots provides incremental benefits to all employees – flight attendants included. When a D-2 pilot is able to occupy the cabin jumpseat, one more seat potentially becomes available for another non-rev passenger (employees, family, D-3 companions, etc.). Six of nine major airlines currently allow cabin jumpseat use by pilots.

Again, we respect the flight attendants' contract and APFA’s obligation to represent their members. We appreciate the effort it took APFA to secure the cabin jumpseat for their members nearly 30 years ago. APA is now engaging in a similar battle on behalf of our members. APA’s proposal does not diminish any flight attendant contractual right, and it just makes sense to put an otherwise empty seat to use.

In Unity,

Fair enough. So, following the argument advanced in this message, I assume the APA will have no problem when the APFA seeks to utilize an unoccupied cockpit jumpseat for non-rev purposes during the next round of contractual negotiations.

I may be wrong, but it seems this whole debate between Tommie and Ralph goes back to the question of why the APA presented its request in such a unilateral fashion when all the hoopla could have been avoided by offering reciprocity. Had the APA simply stated they would like to use the unoccupied cabin jumpseats, and in exchange allow f/as to utilize unoccupied cockpit jumpseats, there would not have been a debate to begin with. It is true that flights are fuller than ever, and I think most of us want to help fellow employees board them any (legal) way we can.

As far as FAA regulations, if Jet Blue f/as can use the cockpit jumpseats, I imagine AA flight attendants "theoretically" can as well. Again, I may be wrong.

Peace,
Art Tang
IMA

 

[flyboymd8]

Art,
Under Part 121, which AA operates, the cockpit jumpseat can only by occupied by an ACM(additional crewmember), what ACM means is Flight crewmember, which is further defined as pilot, flight engineer, etc. The DO(director of operations)which is always a pilot by FAR part 119 can authorize other members to have access to the cockpit jumpseat via specifically listing them in the company manual or via authorized letter. For example, schedulers can ride the jumpseat once a year to familiarize themselves with flight ops. Dispatchers as part of their duties and training can ride the jumpseat as authorized by the DO.
My understanding of what Jetblue does is authorize their FAs to ride the jumpseat for familiarization on a annualized basis, however, they don't track it, so the FA have taken advantage of that. If the FAA finds out about it, I can assure you it will come to a grinding halt ASAP, and FA once again will be restricted to once per year familiarization rides.
Personally I wouldn't want to sit on a FA jumpseat, but ultimately the decision to allow pilots to do that rests with the company not APFA.

 

[ArtTang]

Art,
Under Part 121, which AA operates, the cockpit jumpseat can only by occupied by an ACM(additional crewmember), what ACM means is Flight crewmember, which is further defined as pilot, flight engineer, etc. The DO(director of operations)which is always a pilot by FAR part 119 can authorize other members to have access to the cockpit jumpseat via specifically listing them in the company manual or via authorized letter. For example, schedulers can ride the jumpseat once a year to familiarize themselves with flight ops. Dispatchers as part of their duties and training can ride the jumpseat as authorized by the DO.
My understanding of what Jetblue does is authorize their FAs to ride the jumpseat for familiarization on a annualized basis, however, they don't track it, so the FA have taken advantage of that. If the FAA finds out about it, I can assure you it will come to a grinding halt ASAP, and FA once again will be restricted to once per year familiarization rides.
Personally I wouldn't want to sit on a FA jumpseat, but ultimately the decision to allow pilots to do that rests with the company not APFA.

Thanks for the information. It has been difficult pinning down any specific information regarding the question, so I appreciate your help. This would seemingly explain why the APA did not extend reciprocity to the f/as.

Take care,
Art Tang
IMA

 

[nbmcg01]

Thanks for the information. It has been difficult pinning down any specific information regarding the question, so I appreciate your help. This would seemingly explain why the APA did not extend reciprocity to the f/as.

Take care,
Art Tang
IMA

Isn't it interesting that when reciprocity with other airline f/as to use the jumpseats is finally coming to fruition the pilots want to get in on the action. This will bump the AE f/as and others out of being able to use this newly negoitiated benefit. There are no FATs that restict the use of the jumpseat as long as doors are properly manned by qualified minimum crew. Technically, a pax could occupy the jumpseat.

There should be no reason that f/as should not be able to occupy the cockpit jumpseat. All have been security screened and enter the cockpit to perform in flight duties. It would take only a few moments to secure that agreement. If Co executives are deemed appropriate, then certainly an emergency qualified f/a should be able to occupy the empty seat.

Whether the intent was there or not, the pilots have appeared to encroach on a f/a "benefit". Poor timing and planning.

I think the f/as should be very watchful as this unfolds. There is only one pie, and the pilots are already looking for ways to get a substantial piece. I hope the APFA is properly prepared.

 

[AMFAMAN]

Fair enough. So, following the argument advanced in this message, I assume the APA will have no problem when the APFA seeks to utilize an unoccupied cockpit jumpseat for non-rev purposes during the next round of contractual negotiations.

Good luck, the mechanics got jumpseat language in the 2001 contract and are still not allowed to use them. All fingers are pointing at the APA's refusal to allow us to fly jumpseat, unless on a field trip to fix a broke plane on a full flight. :down:

 

[AAviator]

Isn't it interesting that when reciprocity with other airline f/as.................
-snip-

I think the f/as should be very watchful as this unfolds. There is only one pie, and the pilots are already looking for ways to get a substantial piece. I hope the APFA is properly prepared.

nbmc01,
No offense, but the pie you speak of is an "AA" pie. Not an AE pie. Out of curiosity, how many cabin jumpseats are there on an emb 135/140/145, an ATR, a SAAB 340, and a CRJ700?

Good luck, the mechanics got jumpseat language in the 2001 contract and are still not allowed to use them. All fingers are pointing at the APA's refusal to allow us to fly jumpseat, unless on a field trip to fix a broke plane on a full flight. :down:

AMFAMAN, next time you're in RES, type E (star) (cross-lorain) employee number. Your travel record will show if you're jumpseat able.

A lot changed after 9-11. Before 9-11, I had numerous mechanics on the j/s. Haven't seen one since. (Think TSA)

If you have had a problem or know someone who has, did you or they contact your professional standards rep?

 

[AMFAMAN]

AMFAMAN, next time you're in RES, type E (star) (cross-lorain) employee number. Your travel record will show if you're jumpseat able.

A lot changed after 9-11. Before 9-11, I had numerous mechanics on the j/s. Haven't seen one since. (Think TSA)

If you have had a problem or know someone who has, did you or they contact your professional standards rep?

No such thing as a professional standards rep within the twu, but grievances were filed and then dropped by the twu. FYI...it has nothing to do with the TSA or FAA as SWA, NWA(before strike), and others still allow mechanics to fly jumpseat including the cockpit for personal or business travel. I am told that the APA is keeping us out, but the twu refuses to give us documentation as to why.

 

[AAviator]

No such thing as a professional standards rep within the twu, but grievances were filed and then dropped by the twu. FYI...it has nothing to do with the TSA or FAA as SWA, NWA(before strike), and others still allow mechanics to fly jumpseat including the cockpit for personal or business travel. I am told that the APA is keeping us out, but the twu refuses to give us documentation as to why.

Can you go to the TWU website, copy the grievance and paste it here? Our manual used to have mechanics listed as jumpseat able, but not any more. Did you go into res to check your travel record?

Never heard of it as a pilot issue.............

I remember one disco/Freddy Mercury looking mechanic commuting from AUS to DFW. Saw him 3 or 4 times.....

 

[mistified]

I had a FA yell at me last month while trying to jumpseat. No joke, here was the conversation.
Me: Hi my name is chris and I will be jumpseating.

Working FA: Oh great, I have to share my F'ing jumpseat with you. It's not F'ing small enough right? Can't you catch the next flight? Do you really have to F'ing be on this one?

Maybe it was AAStew

 

[AMFAMAN]

Can you go to the TWU website, copy the grievance and paste it here? Our manual used to have mechanics listed as jumpseat able, but not any more. Did you go into res to check your travel record?

Never heard of it as a pilot issue.............

I remember one disco/Freddy Mercury looking mechanic commuting from AUS to DFW. Saw him 3 or 4 times.....

They don't list us as FDJ's in RES, and I don't beleive we ever were, as it used to be a call from MOD in Tulsa and a captains okay.

The grievance language is not posted but here is all we are allowed to see from this super secret case.

03-02 JUMPSEAT Case withdrawn w/o prejudice

http://atd.twuatd.org/pending29dcases.asp

 

[AAviator]

Never heard a peep from APA. Is the language still in your CBA?

If its not in your traveler information, then Sabre won't show you as cockpit jumpseat able on a standby list.

 

[eolesen]

Uh, last time I checked, the FDJ notation was simply freetext remarks on the G*L0/PALL, and not driven in any way by the E*# entry.